Bob White

"useing common sense" is not a license to altering requirements. Over the decades of scouting many scouts with physical chllenges have completed the hike merit badge requirements as they are stated while in wheelchairs crutches, and with artificial limbs. Carry the scout might make you feel better but i would bet the scout would rather earn the award himself.

My point NJ was that the member of any religion may join scouting, and that is what the BSA's statement on being non-sectarian refers to. You misrepresent it to be in reference to its charter process. Anyone of any religion may be a member of the BSA as long as they follow the policies of the organization just as is expected of every member regardless of their chosen faith.

Pdunbar A 4' tall scout will need to take 30% more steps than a scout who is 5'6" to cover the same distance. Should the distance requirement of the hiking merit badge be changed for him as well? The requirement says nothing about steps, it says you must travel a specific distance. You should not be altering requirements unless approved my the national advancement committee on a case by case basis.

Two Beads-Wood Badge recognition Three Beads-Wood Badge Staff recognition Four Beads- Wood Badge Course Director recognition Five Beads- First Wood Badge Course Director in a nation (the 5th bead is from the original B-P Zulu breast plate)

Tjhammer If you are saying that a person has to accept the membership rules and beliefs of an organization in order to join that organization, I can only say...Well DUH Yeah! Why would you join a group whose tenets you didn't agree with? And by the way the rule isn't new, you're just evidently new to the rule.

Aggie you are 100% correct. Any registered scouter can wear the position of reponsibility patch for whatever position they have accepted. They can wear the TRAINED patch with that position patch once they have completed the required Basic Training for that position. For an ASM position you will need New Leader essentials, SM/ASM Leader Specific Training, and Introduction to Outdoor Skills. Bob White

tjhammer That is an absolute falsehood! And I think you know that. Only the BSA membership violations by the Wiccans and the UUA keep them from being able to charter a scout unit. Nothing in their belief system stops them from being a member. But then you knew that too and did't mention it.

pdunbar I will pass any scout who completes the requirement as stated in the requirements of the merit badge..no more and no less, as required of any merit badge counselor and stated in the Merit Badge Counselor Orientation training, the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual and the BSA advancemnt guidelines. Every scout is different and each have their own personal challenges, some vary only a little some a lot. But every scout who completes a merit badge should have done the same requirements. That not all scouts do it as well or as quickly is irrelevent. If you had talked to Terry Lawson the Director of Boy Scout Advancement or if you attend leadership training, you will learn that, with a doctors verification of the medical condition restricting a scout from completeing a requirement a merit badge can be modified or replaced with an alternate badge in order to meet the advancement needs of the individual scout. What I promise you I will do in any situation is follow the scouting program and do everything I can to help each individual scout to grow and succeed. Given only the information you have shared and nothing else, I would pass the scout once he met the requirement. For all you know or shared the scout may not want to be treated differently, but be allowed to show he can achieve the same goals as other scouts despite his special challenges.

"If this is a company holding a drawing for equipment, then there is potentially a major problem here. Normally companies aren't allowed to discriminate for a wide range of reasons." I believe you are mistaken on this point, laws regarding discrimination for private sector businesses refer primarily to employment and human resource concerns. I am not aware of any law requiring the winner of a contest to meet such laws and besides it would only effect illegal discrimination and the BSA does not discriminate illegaly as has been substantiated by the US Supreme Court.

"The student sings this form as does the academic adviser." Now there is an idea whose time has come. Forget all the legal mubo-jumbo that one has to read in a contract. Lets all SING! (to the Tune of "I've Been Working on the Railroad" Oh...I am the party of the first part and you're the undersigned, Do agree upon today's date the things we've here outlined. take it OGE!(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Pdunbar, Not trying to be flippant but it would be easir if you attended training than trying to get trained through this or any other forum. The BSA allows any scout who needs an advancement variation to apply for such, through specifc channels and methods that are discussed in leader training and outlined in the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual. When a CO drops its charter the local DE steps in and meets with the CO Institution head to work out a plan for one of these things to happen 1 the unit to be re-formed 2 assets to be redonated to a different scout unit 3 assets to be used by the CO for a different youth centered program that it sponsors

Not at all. I had the Methodist Church there because the previous poster included them. I should ahve filtered that statement. Some methodist churches have decided not to charter units, but the SA has not chosen to restrict them as chartering organizations or as memmbers. My point was the poster suggested that UUA, Wiccans and others could not be members. That is not true, the BSA restricts a few organizatins as COs for their refussal to abide by BSA policies but that does not restrict individuals of those organizations from joining. By the way it would unique to have a unit charetred to a UMC church, as a national effort the UMC charters its units through the Methodist Mens Club.

"Too much focus on religion, inside the framework of scouting, is hurting the scouting program. A personal opinion not shared or supported by the tenets or program of the Boy Scouts of America.

I'd say "OK Thank you." and I'd go find one of the other many many many backpacks out there.

Beaver, with all due respect, I would never presume to explain another persons faith. While I respect your knowledge of yours, please be careful about speaking on behalf of others. To say the Catholic church would not exist without a Pope is far from accurate. The Roman Catholic "Faith" is lead by the Pope who we believe to be Christ's representative on Earth. The Shepherd of His flock. The Roman Catholic "church" is made of the Catholic faithful of a community, wherever they gather in worship forms a church. So a church can and has existed without a Pope as there have been brief times in history when there was no seated Pope. Yet the Catholic church still existed. The Pontiff is not the center of the faith, he is the recognized earthly leader.

Sure NJ First, Scout accounts are not a scouting method nor a scouting program element, nor a BSA invention, so if you are looking for it in a scouting resource it is not there. Next, In every bank account I have ever had the bank and I had a signed agreement. We agreed that the money I put in was mine. We had a written agreement on how that money could be taken out. The troop has no such agreement. The money going in was never the scout's money it was always troop money. There was never an agreement that the scout owned the money, only offer on how a portion of the troops money could be used by the scout. Would I ever keep a scouts money if he was using in manner agreed to. Never. Is the money earmarked for scout use, yes. Does the money "belong" to the scout? Not until it is handed to him and he takes ownership of it.

"My first couple of comments simply reflects the passion of posting. You gotta lighten up a little! Oh... I think you can be more specific than that. Here allow me. You purposely falsified what I wrote in order to support a conclusion that you made up. And had I not challenged you on it, you would have been perfectly comfortable letting it lay there and impersonate the truth. Since when is Newsweek an authority on the BSA? Whatever article you are refering to is one persons opinion and has no bearing or force on the Scouting program. "As for Games that are taken too seriously.I think everyone here in this forum would agree that we all need to keep tabs on the perspective from which we approach our Scouting functions each week." Right..so in other words you made that up too. "Sorry Bob, I dont get your last paragraph. Duty to God is a far cry from religious education. We are not anyones religion school." Again you misrepresent what was written. Will you ever tire of that? Where did I say the BSA was a religion school? Here let me break it down for you. Merriam-Webster defines religious as... 1 : relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity the BSA requires this for membership by all youth and adults in Cubs, Boy Scouts, and Venturing. 2 : of, relating to, or devoted to religious beliefs or observances Scout Sunday, Scout Sabbath, grace at meals, Troop Chaplains and Chaplains Aides, Scout Religious Award Program, Venturing Religious Life Program, Camp Church Services. 3 a : scrupulously and conscientiously faithful On My Honor I will do my best to do my duty to God, A Scout is Reverent You may not like it. You may not even live it. But you cannot deny that Scouting is religious. Need more proof? Here is just one of several pages at the National BSA website on religious activities in scouting. http://www.scouting.org/relationships/chaplains/index.html The BSA is not a religion. Not a religious institution, Not a religious school. The BSA is however, religious. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

That is an often misunderstood clause KS. It doesn't mean that you can't sell popcorn because the video store sells popcorn. It means that the unit cannot develop a fulltime enterprise that conflicts with a local business in order to fund the scout unit.

pdunbar This threasd started with the suggestion you get training, that is a good point to revisit. Do not think that the policies of scouting are not real world. Some have been challenged and supported all the way to the US Supreme Court, including your opinion of the "mistake with homosexuals". The annual charter agreement that the istitutional head of every CO signs each year with the local council is very real, and very legal. Troop Committee challenge will teach you of the authority of the Charter Organization representative. New Leader Essentials will explain the Charter Organization process of scouting and the ownership of the units by the COs. Each scout has their own account??? Do you mean that it is not just a line item in the budget of the troop account? You actually open a separate bank account for each scout? That would be rare indeed. Your biggest problem at this point is not the actions of the CO, but your own misconceptions and lack of information on the structure of the scouting program.

In every case I know of the term "scout account" is a tag line, there is no physical account that carries the scouts name or an legally binding agreement. The unit money is almost always in one single acount. The question is not, does the CO have any legal claim, it is... does the scout have any legal claim to it. No. The money was raised by an activity group of the charter organization using the name and images of the BSA. The CO and BSA have stewardship of the assets. While the unit exists the CO allow the unit committee be responsible for the money. Not own it, just be responsible for it.

right on Fscouter. That is the real lesson here. Ypu will have a stronger, better longer lived program when you are the youth activity of your charter organization and everyone understands that. We have a church in town undergoing a multi-million dollar renovation that includes a new scout room. The unit leaders were invited in for a wish-session with the architect when the building was being planned. That is an organization that understands the relationship. That could be any one of your units if....You decide to make it happen.

Youth of the UUA, youth of Wiccan covens, youth of the Episcopalian Church as well as the Methodist church are all welcome to join Scouting, as are the adult members of those same organizations. They will of course be required to follow the policies of the BSA just as any other member. No one is treated differently. The only thing the BSA has said is that those organizations cannot charter a scout unit, because they have said they will break the rules. If over two-hundred-thousand other COs can follow the rules why can't they? And why should they be treated differently. Howl at the moon on this all you want NJ the moon will not fall from the sky to appease you. Get a thousand others to howl with you and still the moon goes on. It is held in place by forces you will not effect. The BSA is no different. Howl on.

Foto scout you misquote me on several points. Where in my post did I say that the Boy Scout handbook was a religious publication? I didn't, those are your words not mine. "Next thing well be reading about is the investiture of BP as the deity of the WCS (World Church of Scouting)." What possible statement did I give would lead to such a ridiculous conclusion? None, again your words not mine. "Youll of course remember that a highly regarded national publication brought some of those relationships into question, and at the least, raised the specter of Nationals concerns about how those relationships have served BSA and what national would need to do in order to sever at least one of those relationships." You will need to be more clear I have no idea what you are talking about. "BSA is neither a religion, nor a religious movement." on that we agree, but if you are suggesting that I said it was you are again mistaken. If you were to accurately report what I wrote you would see it says a "religious organization". This is a fact which was atested to in court by the BSA. Religious obligation is one of the three personal dedications made in the Scout Oath. We support and encourage religious obligation in numerous faiths. We are religious, we are not however a religion. Nor are we a religious movement. "Try to remember, this is a game with a purpose!" I do, and I am fully aware of its purpose. We are a character developing movement that has as one of its three principles a belief in, and duty to, God. That is undeniable. "Games that are taken too seriously are harmful to all." While that might make a lovely needlepoint sampler I am sure, I am unaware of any specific evidence to that fact and look forward to you sharing the source of the research. I take the mission of scouting very seriously and I think many parents and leaders do as well. It is unfortunate that you seem to have no problem with the "Duty to others" and "Duty to self" portioons of the Oath, but seem very uncomfortable regarding Duty to God. This is not a menu at a Chinese restaurant where you can choose one from column A and one from Column B. Reigious responsibility and faith are inseparable from the scouting program. That has been the case since before either you or I were scouts, and is no different today.

FotoScout, There is the crux of the dilemma. You want the BSA to have a program that agrees with you, rather than you having to agree to the BSA program. You write "I dont view Scouting as a surrogate for religious education." But the BSA does. The BSA allows an approved chartering organization to use the BSA program to further its own mission to youth through the methods and program of scouting. That is a fundamental point of the program and the charter concept. Your write "The essence of Scouting is most evident when we of different backgrounds come together for a Scouters Own," you misunderstand the purpose of scouts own. It helps units or scout gatherings that are mixed celebrate a religious observance based on the commonly shared points of the oath and law. It does not replace individual beliefs or worship obligations. "I dont believe that Scouting was ever intended to be a vehicle to teach children about their faith," Again you are mistaken about the structure of scouting. Statistics show that 10 out of every 100 boys who join scouting have their first exposure to formalized religion through the scouting program. We are a religious organization. We require a religious belief for membership, we require a promise of religious service from every member, We have a national division that fosters close cooperation with dozens of religious faiths, we require youth members to provide evidence of religious service to advance. You cannot separate scouting and religious education. "I believe that too much focus on religion is hurting the scouting program." You are welcome to your personal beliefs but do not confuse them with being the facts about the scouting program. What you want the BSA to be, and what it is and has always been, are not the same. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

NJ No spin just explanation. Read OGE's post again. "Do Unitarians refuse to charter Boy Scout units or does the BSA choose not to charter units to those congregations? The correct answer is both. Each party is saying what OGE asked. I simply pointed out the order in which they were said. The UUA said they would not follow the rules but would continue to charter scout units. The BSA then said "No you won't", so the UUA then changed their approach to one of "OH NO WE WON'T" I wouldn't say they put a spin on it, it is more of a posturing. All I did was give an explanation of the order of events. You take it however you want.