Bob White

OOPS, You are correct, I missed the 2001 revision mark. Here is the 2000 printing in cache form from the national site. it says the same thing. So again none of todays cubs should be in the orange backers according to the uniform policies of 2000. The 1999 tigers would already be in Boy Scouts. http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:BiiC8TnobksJ:www.scouters.org/scouters/uniform/cub.pdf+2000+cub+uniform+inspection&hl=en&ie=UTF-8(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Prior to 1998 these were a part of Exploring BSA Not that I can find evidence of. There were Sea Scouts, Air Scouts for a short time, Career Exploring which included all the emergency service posts as well, and a High Adventure posts. I think its great that you are a history buff, which past Exploring handbook did you find things like Religious Life, Arts and Hobbies and Sport Clusters in Exploring. I have some of the handbooks going back to the early 40s and I don't recall those programs. I really think you might have some confusion as to what the history really was. You certainly have me confused.

Pdunbar, You wrote to me that everything I said about your situation was correct. You even posted that same thing. I have accepted everything you have written about your side as factual. You will excuse me if I am fair enough to assume that everything you say of your adversaries is not unbiased and non-prejudicial. Based on what you have written, the COR did things you didn't like, but not things they aren't authorized to do. The basic problem your unit had was a poor relationship with your CO and your leadership is 50% responsible for that poor condition. Now you may not like that, but that doesn't make it less truthful. Offering you an explanation of some scouting structures you didn't know or understand isn't grounds for arrogance. Do I know a little more about the program than a few other posters, yes I do. And there a few others on this forum who know as much if probably not more than me. Unfortunately for you, none of them are cheering you on either. There are a few posters who enjoy taking personal shots at me, hey, sticks and stones. Most of them are not really unit leaders, or haven't taken the time to learn about the program they "run". Sorry if you don't care for my direct writing style. I don't have time for coddling people who aren't looking for the scouting way but just want to garner support for "their" way. I have been more than happy to give cheerfully service to those trying to do the best scouting program they can. I get over 60 private messages a month from posters who want to avoid some of the vicious rhetoric fired at me by a couple posters, but ask for my assistance in delivering a strong program. Some I have ongoing e-mail and phone support from me. The all seem to welcome my help and I am glad to oblige if it will help them. So I really don't care how a few people want to characterize me. If you just want someone to say its OK to do what you want, then you have found the posters willing to say that. I'm just not one of them.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Total horse hockey pdunbar. I defy you to produce one iota of evidence that the what you present is supported in any way by the BSA.

I am afraid you are incorrect fgoodwin. The orange background has not represented Tiger Cubs for over 7 years. That's longer than this years Wbelos have been around. Tigers have for some time started their first year with the yellow background of cub scouting. As evidence here is a PDF of the 1997 Cub Uniform inspection sheet. You will notice in the instructions for the left pocket area that even then it specifically said that Tigers use yellow and not orange. http://www.scoutstuff.org/misc/isheets/34282.pdf BW

My guess acco is because the unit # are actually assigned to the CO. Sometimes when a unit folds or a charter drops and the CO does not renew key members of a unit might go to another CO. What happens in the background that you may not be awrare of is the council has to get permission from the old CO for the new one to take on that #.f the original CO agrees than the # can be assigned to a different organization. Technically the unit's tenure begins anew with the new CO. Now that brings us back to why the council keeps the records together. It's just easier for them to retrieve paperwork that way. In the past all unit records were hard copies stored numerically by district. Then they were moved to Fish with hard copy backups. Now they are scanned and stored electronically with a minimum of hard copy records. The electronic copies are transmitted to national, and retrievable on ScoutNet by the local councils.

My mistake again Twocubdad (and NJ since you are of one voice). You see where I come from when you quote somebody as saying something they really didn't say, and you know they didn't say it, we don't call that satire. We call it, hmmm how to be diplomatic...in the Bible it is referred to as "bearing false witness". Satire as I recall is when you use wit to expose human vice. Was that witty, I must have missed it. Is saying that the CO followed the rules a vice? If so than I erred again. Then of course if its not a vice, and your quote was a falsehood then that would change things a little wouldn't it? I guess if I had the choice, I would rather lack your idea of a sense of humor, than lack a sense of honesty. (you picked a heck of a team mate NJ) (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Eagle1984, who all have you reported the youth protection violations to?

How many Ford owners today have thoroughly studied the operation and problems of the Model T to help them better understand how to drive a Ford today? Not every situation requires a you to know the past. Some things, like scouting, (and driving)simply require you to know what you are doing now.

"I am only making decisions about what is right for me. I dont pretend to know what is right for others. Perhaps you feel differentlyI?" Gee Padre, I'm sorry. Here I thought you were trying to make fun of community volunteer scout leaders by comparing them to hippies of the 60s My mistake.

The charters are held by the CO not the unit, so the tenure is with the CO not the unit.

My point twocub is that we only have half the facts, and what we have been given does not speak any better of the leaders as they do the CO.

A man giving a boat tour on a lake says " I have been living on this lake for thirty-years, I know every rock in it". Suddenly the boat crashes bow first into a huge submerged boulder and begins to sink. "Ahh" says the guide, "there's one now". Knowing the mistakes of the past will just help you recognize them when you make them today. Knowing today's scouting program will keep you from making the mistake to begin with.

"Yes, I am making an assumption that pdunbar's story is accurate." If you are assuming that what pdnbar said is accurate (and I have no reason to doubt that it isn't), then what know is the unit has at least one active, unhappy volunteer, (who says they are Wood Badge trained but never learned the roles and responsibilities of the COR or charter organization), who has a poor relationship with the chartered organization, is complaining about the IH and COR who, by all the information we have at this time, have not done anything that is outside of the authority they possess as a Chartering Organization. The troop has been functioning without adequate leadership and wants to take the assets of the CO and leave and go to another charter organization where for all we no the only thing that changes is the location of the meetings. Pdunbar's story paints the unit in a worse light than the CO in most ways. So my comments have ben based only on what I know to this point, what pdunbar has shared and how a real life, healthy, scouting program works.

The BSA does not allow councils to grant a charter to an organization that would disciminate based on race.

:) Funny stuff Padre, but it must be very frustrating to have been around so long and still "not get it".

Keep in mind that hundreds of units with the same troop number can exist throughout the country. You can even have multiple units within the council with the same number. Seeing a troop number without any community reference tells you nothing of the scouts identity or home area. Our troop website would be difficult for non members to find it does not list our troop # (the scouts and families know it. It does not list anyones last name. It has no phone #s just e-mail adresses. It has no advanced calendar dates just event desciptions and photos after the fact. Why tell strangers where the boys will be and when adults will be away from their homes? We do have a list of activities advancement tips, council and national events, resource links and the like. It may not be glitzy but why tell people in Idaho about a troop 700 miles away? It's not like they are going to join?

"All activities are authorized within controlling legal guidelines." Who said that? " But that's not what the BSA Rules and Regs Scoutldr leader say." Who is that? "Assuming pdunbars description of the situation is accurate (I'm sure there is another side to the story), as you point out the COR appears to have followed all the proper BSA policies and still done everything wrong." A big assumption! Never hear just one side of a story and assume its accurate. There is another entire vantage point we have no information on. pdunbar's lack of knowledge on scouting does not help support the story we are hearing. I am glad the scouts continue to have a program and I hope the committee and leaders have a better relationship with their new CO.

I had a very similar plight a couple years ago as the DC. A rookie DE and I were doing just fine but the FD was, as you say, a twit. It was obvious that my interaction with the FD was harmfull to the the DE's career so I resigned and moved to training coordinator before it affected him, at a time when the District had earned the Quality District recognition two years in a row. Since then the DE has quit, two new ones came on board and we found a new DC who is doing just fine, and we have continued to meet the Quality District status for another two years. I guess the moral of the story is "life goes on" no one is indispensable. Do what you need to do to keep your morale and sanity, the district will survive. Follow your joy my friend. Bob

You can't drive very far if all you do is look in the rearview mirror.Look where you are going not where you have been. Knowing scoutings past isn't going to do you a lick a good if you can't deliver the program today.

You have now used two different terms which do you mean "traditional Exploring" as in your post http://www.scouter.com/forums/postings.asp?action=ReplyForm&threadID=58278&forumID=21#id_58448 of this thread, or "Tradional Scouting" as in your most recent post in this thread? They are not interchangeable and yet you have used them as such. You said traditional explorering existed prior ro 1998 and was replaced by traditional Venturing. When in fact what happened was that Exploring was moved from traditional scouting to Learning for Life and Venturing was introduced into traditional scouting. Traditional scouting by the way Dana is everything OUTSIDE of Learning for Life. Have you ever considered forgetting about the past, and all the gimmicks you are trying to come up with, and just deliver a perfectly good program for which there are ample current resources and training available. Before you try to recreate the wheel, how about just learning to use the wheel you have.

I gotta tell you Eamonn, I'm really looking forward to meeting you. I only wish that Jambo wasn't so far away.

pdunbar We keep coming back to training. The COR has the authority AND the responsibility to select and approve ALL adult members. The COR has the responsibilty to select the CC. You speak of his actions as something he did wrong, and what he did you may not like, but he indeed has the authority as the COR to do those things unless the IH says otherwise. I am sorry that the local district or council did not meet with the key members of the unit to help, they should have. But their mistake does not give the committee the right to take assets that they do not own. Our unit commisioner felt that the CO and CR could do what ever they wanted, ioncluding tyerminationg individuals without just cause. Your commissioner was 100% right. the IH and COR do indeed have the authority to do that. It is their unit and you are their at their approval to work with their scout unit. "The Co was not fulfilling their obliagations." So far everything you have sited about the IH and COR are well within their authority. "Why should we not have our gear and money?" Very simply, because it is not yours. Not unless the CO decides to give it to another CO. NLDSCOUTER I would be interested in evidence of that statement regarding the unit being a legal entity in NY. I was a scouter in NY for several years until just a few years ago and that was not true at that time. I cannot imagine the BSA not fighting a court decision of that type. I believe you are victim of a rumor. Do not think finding just one lawyer will help you. The CO and the BSA can show up with far more than that. The better thing to do would be to have a good scout program and nurture the relationship with the charter organization. I have seen some units go through this, but never a good one. I'm sure pdunbar feels differently in this case, but here is someone with 7 years experience who has never taken training, and has no knowledge of the roles and responsibilities of the CO, COR or IH. You have to wonder how many others in the unit are in the same situation. So far we have heard about things Pdunbar doesn't like, but we have not heard of anything the COR or IH has actually done wrong. it sounds more like they wanted different leadership in their unit and were taken staeps to accomplish that.

Thanks KS, For any non believers I found this column by a consumer reporter. She too talked with the folks at reynolds http://www.nbc4.com/answerstoaskliz2002/1221937/detail.html

First as the barrister would point out, I said in a way, not in all ways. At no time did I compare the youth members to employees. they are in this analogy the customers, the end-user of the product or service. The inducement is the opportunity to serve the customer. Any leader who does is not motivated by that should not have been selected for employment. The council/CO/committee and leaders are there to serve the youth THROUGH the Charter Organizations. In your real life case the CO broke the contract. As any lawyer learns, there is no justice, there is only law. What you think is fair is always dependent on your vantage point, the rules are meant to be benefit each party providing they all stay within the rules. For a charter organization to not provide for the responsibiliteies it agreed to is a violation of the rules. In such rare cases the BSA has interceded to urge the CO to fulfill its responsibilities or lose the charter. The BSA has the right to claim those assets since they were gained using the name and symbols of the BSA intended for the use of their members. A new or existing charter organization is found and the members offered the opportunity to transfer and the NEW CO gains ownership of the assets. In turn, if members decide to leave the Charter organization much as the way employees change employers, the CO has the choice to maintain a scouting program and select new leaders and members. In this case the exiting adult and youth members are due nothing unless the CO chooses otherwise. Nowhere will you find a reference in scouting to the unit "belonging" to the committee or the leaders. If the unit and the scouting program do not belong to anyone other than the CO and to the BSA, then neither do the assets of that unit. The charter organization concept has been a unique identifier of the BSA since the early 1900s I am amazed at the number of posters who seem oblivious to its existence and purpose. The State rests its case your Honor.