Bob White

Packsaddle, Were did I qualify the rule as cowardly or heroic, good or bad? I simply said it was the rule, made by the people authorized with setting the rules of the program. As I pointed out, you have an opinion on the character of the rule, and you are welcome to your opinion whatever it may be. But if you want to play the game, you have to obey the rules. Some people have a responsibility to make the rules, some the responsibility to follow them. Yours if you are a volunteer member of the BSA, is the latter.

packsaddle you are welcome to your opinion. Having one however does not make you Right. You might have the opinion that 6 strikes make an out and not three and that the the baseball league is cowardly. But the fact is that its the leagues game and they get to make the rules. the Umpires enforce it and the players are expected to follow them if they want to play. Scouting is no different. The executive board makes the rules, commissioned professionals and volunteers enforce them and the unit members are expected to follow them if they want to play.

EagleKY Remember that your trek had about 7 to 12 people in it. Your trek week welcomed 200 scouts per-day. Philmont hosted nearly 20,000 scouts each year. Yes, several times each year youth and adult members show up expecting to hike but get stopped for their own safety as well as for the safety of those who would have to go and rescue them. So it its quite feasible the small group you hiked with even in three treks, you might never have see this happen. Next visit, ask a medical staffer how often each it happens. NJ My concern was and is that A) the scout be allowed every opportunity to experience Philmont without endangering himself or others, and B) that Mike not have to put himself or the unit in the middle of what could be a poisonous disagreement that could fracture the stability of the troop, or spoil scouting for its members. If you feel that your personal attacks and criticisms of me personally benefits Mike's situation or enhances scouting for the boys, fine. If not, and you do this just for sport, that is very sad, and belittles you far more than it does me.

"I'm an ASM, Parent and a CM. Am I disqualified from sitting on a BoR (not for my son's) because I'm an ASM?" Except for eagle, yes.

So you really have no idea where the rules and policies originate from, you are just guessing.

Mike you have the information you need to show the parents that the son does not meet "Philmonts" requirements and to take yourself and the unit out of the middle of the conflict. It is not you saying he cannot go it is Philmont's guidelines that are identifying his restrictions. I agree that this is not fun, but you can make it less destructive to the unit by not making this your burden or your rules. Share the Philmont documents with Dr. Dad and explain that it would not be safe or fair to expose his son to this kind of event at this point in his development according to the High Adventure base. And Philmont really is the final authority. Many boys get to camp and then are not permitted on the trail.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

NJ I am surprised that as a lawyer you think you have the right to stay in a private organization. As you know, you do not. You are allowed to stay as long as you abide by the rules, or are maintained in membership by the CO. THe BSA or the CO can remove your membership at any time, just as they can do with any member. That is their right. There is no such thing as the right of membership in the BSA. There are however responsibilities of membership. Taking membership policy disagreement to thr proper national comittee and personnel rather than through public disagreement or protest is a responsibility of membership. Violation of which can cause your membership in this private organization to be removed. You law background should confirm that your right to free speech is no greater than or less than the BSA's right to free association and to choose its own members. You can protest this issue all you want from outside the BSA but that does not give you the right to retain membership.

Sorry Greg, but to say she runs by the book but doesn't let the scouts lead is contradictory and doesn't tell us anything. As the ASM what have you seen? Give us examples please.

NJ As a unit leader a BSA member is not a voting or administrative member of the BSA. They are responsible for delivering the BSA program within a chartering organization. A Commissioner a volunteer is a commissioned representative of the official BSA. As a trainer a volunteer has a responsibility to represent the official program, policies and methods of the BSA. As a Chartering Organization Representative an individual is a voting member of the local district and council. I wear the hats of both a program leader and a representative of the official program, and as a voting member of the District, as do others on this forum. There are times I mean they, there are times I mean we. As far as I know I have never said MY program, or my unit, or my way, or my rule. Isn't that more important?

OOPS the speed typing course failed me again. Scratch the religious sports. the thought of Nuns with javelins gives me nightmares. I meant to ask if Sports is a part of LFL. Or religious life.

Pdunbar, you referenced being Wood Badge trained in one post, and having seven years experience in the program. Who do you believe the BSA governing body is.

Explain to me why you are telling me this? The last time you addressed me you had hopped on the bandwagon with a couple others to sling insults rather than discuss topics. You have already left that CO, why dwell on the problems of the past? Why ask what to do if it is no longer and issue for you. As long as you now have a new CO and a full committee to do the paperwork that's needed why do you continue to dwell on the past?

A few questions: What is your role in the troop? What lead scouts to believe they had the authority to select or fire adult volunteers. New or old what is the COR's decision. What exactly has the SM done to upset the scouts so much.

Pdunbar, Who you choose to allow to be role models in your home is your right to choose. Who the BSA allows to be a role model in their organization is their right to choose. The BSA does not tell you that you have to let someone into your home. They are expecting the same respect and courtesy from you.

Dana, "if all these so called critics would look into Today's Venturing program they will find many things that were in the past Venturing's" Then why the need to study the past if it is already present in the current program? If you learn todays probram don't you already know the Past? Today's Ranger award has already lasted longer than the first one did. The Explorer and the Venturing Bronze, Gold, and Silver Awards come from the Eagle Palms. As you said the Sea Scouts haven't changed much. So why do you seem unsatisfied with just offering todays program? "if all these so called critics would look into Today's Venturing program they will find many things that were in the past Venturing's" Good advice Dana, but aren't you one of those critics? Early in your postings you push the need to bring back things from the past to make today's Venturing better, and now you say that the current program ALREADY HAS much of the old in it. I'm confused about what you really want or believe, and I doubt that I am alone.

Dana, you first used the term cluster and then said that clusters didn't exist. The Vocation referred to in Exploring is what became Career Exploring, not Religious Life Venturing. You are using the wrong definition of vocation. High adventure is part of Learning for Life? Sea Scouts is part of Learning for Life? Religious Sports? Life is part of Learning for Life? LFL was started in order to be able to remove religion. Maybe some examples would help me here. Where are you finding this information?

I don't know every gay person so I am not about to say I believe every one is an activist. Here is what I do believe. I believe that the a private citizen or a private organization have a constitutionally protected right of free association. And I believe that I wouldn't join, or remain in an organization if I didn't share their values.

He is partially correct. Only one adult is required for the meeting as long as he is NEVER in a situation where is is one on on with a youth member. BUT, what he is failing to aknowledge is that the unit belongs to the Charter organization and if they say there are two be two or a hundred adults present then he needs to accept that. If I were a a responsible for the assets of a charter organization I would never allow for only one adult to be present anytime there was youth involved in a function of the organization. If the Charter Organization Institutional Head or Charter Organization Representative want a leader out of the unit or out of a specific position, they only need to say so, there is no reason needed. The CO owns the unit and determines its leadership.

Welcome Mrs. Smith No such web site exists that I know of. fortunately though you have other options. Your local council has professionals who can either direct you to official sources or to volunteers they know who understand and use the official scouting program. A good place to find folks like this is at your districts monthly Roundtable meeting or call your local district professional, Commissioner, or training chair. Of course we do have some knowledgable scouters here, both professional and volunteer, who will be glad to direct you to the offical resources of the BSA that will answer the vast majority of your questions. I hope this helps, Bob White

Do you mean, iron it onto the uniform, or iron it onto the patrol medallion? Forget about rugged enough. the Field Uniform is a dress shirt it is not designed to be rugged. Other ways to use the iron on transfer would be on for an activity polo, t-shirt or jacket. It also makes good patrol flags.

Whoa Mike, you just changed the original situation a little. You really didn't talk about the "unit" restricting his involvement before. You asked about the ADA and how it relates to this event. It is not for the unit to restrict the scout if he meets the requirements set for the others, even if he only meets them minimally. Each application to Philmont is as an individual. It will be Philmont's decision whether or not to allow the scout on the trail. there is no need for you to place yourself or the unit in the middle of this problem. If you have specific safety concerns for this scout I would share them with the parents and with Philemont. The reasons you give about the affect his participation may have on others is only a guess. helping him to achieve this challenge could actually be a very positive experience for the crew. Prepare this scout as best you can and let the proper program level determine his fitness for the trek. At least that would be my suggestion.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Our District Advancement chair is getting ready to being quarterly "Life to Eagle" seminars for Life scouts, their parents and Scpoutmasters. The 90 minute session will cover th details of the application packet and answer questions on the advancement process. I'll let you know more as things develop. BW

and I of yours.

To my knowledge during Baden-Powells lifetime there were no homosexual activists movements making an organized attempt to gain membership into the UK Boy Scout movement. In fact up until the early 70s individuals homosexual preferences in the US were not fodder for the media. Until the late 1990s no one attempted to be present homosexuality to families as a rich and wholesome lifestyle to be exemplified to children. So luckily for Baden-Powell, it is not a subject he was forced to use his time and resources on, allowing him to focus on developing the program for the boys and not on the social/political demands of homosexuals.

"Come on Bob, your post sounds like Beltwayspeak from some politician caught with their hand in the cookie jar. "All activities are authorized within controlling legal guidelines." You admitted it was not my quote only after I called you on it. You chose to put the quote marks on it, you could have chosen to say at the time who you were quoting. Instead you chose not to establish that it was someone else and not me. As you point out I work hard to give accurate information. If I write something wrong, I own up to it. If I ever make something up and attribute it to you, that's when I will need to apologize. Continue to wait.(This message has been edited by Bob White)