Bob White

Whoa!! The council doesn't set the price for camporees the volunteer chairman does. If the event lost money are you going to call for an audit on that too? Are you personally prepared to foot the bill for an audit? Before you start making potentially danaging claims to the media how about taking some time to cool off and learn how a non-profit organization works. All incoming monies go into the general fund except for special funds such as trusts. The money in the general fund is then budgeted depending on the local needs of the council based on its specific priorities, all of which are determined by volunteers. Of course the COPE course makes money. Would you prefer it lost money? The hope is that every event makes a little just so that the program can continue to be maintained each year. In case you haven't noticed the cost of stuff gets a little higher each year. If every activity either lost or broke even you wouldn't be able to sustain the program. This attitude of "them and us" really burns me. Oxcops you must have some great program skills that is why you are running the COPE course. If you had financial skills you would be on a different committee. Consider doing the job you were asked to do as well as you can. If you don't think you can do that, that's your decision. But before you start complaining about the financing you need to learn more about it, and for heavens sake ignore hot headed advice like audits and media threats. If I were the Scout Executive and you did that I would seriously consider yanking your membership on the grounds of being a huge pain in the neck, or at the very least see that you never served in a capacity outside of the unit again. Most volunteers serve in a very confined area of service and have no idea how a corporation works and seldom take the time to learn. Thats fine as long as you do the job you have accepted. But if you want to make waves at least have the courtesy to learn how the ship operates. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Sorry boleta but I do not see how winning an election fulfills the requirement. The demonstration of leadership comes after the election. Now that he is a class officer let's see what he does to show leadership. It is not about the titles, it is about the skills you use to accpmplish goals that defines leadership.

Well I did the FOS presentation at my son's troop Court of Honor. I was last on the agenda for the evening. The parents were so appalled by being asked to help support the scoting program that made me accept over $2000 in pledges. How dare they!

Ed.D. right you are boys, thanks!

This thread will hopefully serve as a lesson for others. The scout did not quit the troop when he turned 18. The scout ceased being a member in accordance with the membership rules of the BSA. He did not quit, he completed his scouting. Lots of people do not accept the role of adult leadership. There is no law saying that just because you earned the Eagle award you have to be an adult leader. Does he not have the right to choose when in his life he accepts that responsibility? National did not by pass the the advancement steps. The troop mishandled the advancement as was pointed out in an earlier post. The matter went into appeal and national rendered the decision as to whether the scout earned "their" recognition or not and decided, as predicted, that he had. Lets teach mom a lesson by punishing her son. But putting aside the fact that national has determined that a member earned the recognition the "troop" has decided not to present them formally. So not only are they unwilling to consider that they were in error, they have decided to continue to irritate the parents, and to punish the scout, even though he did nothing wrong. Any bets as to whether he will let his son be a scout someday? Throw a pebble in the water and the ripples spread. I'm sure the "troop" feels in some bizarre way they are 'upholding the quality and heritage of the Eagle Rank' they are in fact giving the program a black eye that could last for generations in this boys family. They have compounded their first bad decision by making yet another one.

It was presented to me and several hundred scouters from across the country at Philmont Training Center, I heard it again a few months later at our council's annaual dinner. It was part of a national recruitment video-cast from national to thousands of volunteers across the country. Whether it was passed along to unit level volunteers I suppose was left to the local council professionals and volunteers to do. The training team hear mentions it at most training courses. We heard about it in this district, I cannot account for other districts or councils.

"Exactly which each Troop is depends upon the capability of the boys, style of the adults, desires of the sponsors, size of the Troop, plans of parents, etc." I gotta disagree, while the development phase the scouts are in will determine how much boy leadership is in operation the other elements listed should not be a factor in a unit following the scouting program. The style of the adults should be the Scouting leadership styles not their own, the size of the troop is irrelevant if you follow the Patrol Method. The desire of the Charter Organization should be to follow the scouting methods and program as they agreed to in the charter agreement. The plans of the parents should not alter the methods of scouting.

Cool, if I remember correctly from so many years ago, is a personally feeling of social acceptance by your peers. The challenge to adults both in and out of scouting is to help guide youth to choose peers wisely, and to teach them to have the self confidence to not need peer approval to feel fulfilled. I totally disagree that scouting needs to be cool, if by cool you mean that everyone accept and look up to us. There are portions of the population to whom scouting will only be cool if we lower ourselves to their values or lack of values. The scouting program was never meant to march to the same beat as everyone in the community. What scout leaders need to do, IMHO, is to help scouts find and thrive in a peer group whose skills and moral attitudes are ahead of where many other youth their age are in development. As Bill Cosby PhD. says, "The surest way to failure is to try and please everyone." Forget about being cool. Teach them to be scouts and carry their coolness inside them without the need to get their "coolness" from others.

OA is not the same. The COPE course is a function of the camp. A better comparison is camping fees. Camping fees do not all go back to the camp, they go into the general fund.

You seem to want the COPE course treated as a separate entity within the council budget and that is unlikely to happen. Monies generated by activity fees, camp fees, golf outings, popcorn, FOS, and other income areas of the council all go to the general fund. From there they are distributed according to the priorities set by the Council Executive Board. That is just the nature of Non-profits. There may or may not be a line item for COPE fees. It is possible that it is bundled in with camp usage fees.

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Has that ever been our goal or purpose?

OGE, A survey was done by the BSA not quite two years ago, where a couple thousand scout aged boys were surveyed. They were asked , among other things, if they could do any activity what would they wand to do. The answers were nearly all based on adventure. Mountain climbing, cave exploring, white water rafting, rappelling, and other common scouting activities were mentioned. When asked if they had ever heard of the Boy Scout program the response was nearly 100% yes. When asked why they were not members the most frequent answer was...."No one ever asked me to join" Before we worry about the uniform, let's ask them to join scouting. Then let's make them proud to be scouts by giving them the adventure promised them by the Scouting program.

I'm considering adding a water purification system to my camping arsenal. I would like some suggestions of ones that you have used, do you recommend them? Why or why not. Share their specs too please. Thanks Bob White

I can easily remember when the uniform changed into its current incarnation. There was no specific event that spurred it. No cause that created the change. Adults and scouts alike who wore the khaki uniform with jeans began wearing the tan uniform shirt with jeans. Those that wore a complete uniform in khaki transitioned to a complete tan and green uniform. The uniform change did not change people. Those who had pride in being a member of the scouting movement showed that pride by dressing the part. Those who were apathetic before remained apathetic afterwards. Good uniforming comes from yhow much you like and respect the program, not from the fashion of the uniform.

Dana compare your first and last post. "To create a new program within Sea Scouting" vs. "there are already Maritime Careers listed in the Sea Scout Manual" and " I am not trying to re-invent the wheel" Do you see why your posts are so frustrating? Which is it are trying to create something new or trying to share something that exists? You don't seem to know yourself! Maybe you can clarify something for me? I know that you like scout history, I know you like to brainstorm, you seem to see yourself as an idea person. Those are all nice ethereal things. But, when it comes to being a Venturing Commissioner, what do you actually DO. By that I mean, in an average program month, what concrete work do you do to support Venturing in your District? I am just really curious.

"If you're going to do this type of uniform survey, you certainly dont want to solicit the choir about their thoughts on singing in the choir." I totally disagree, and here is why. If I am going to get new robes for the chior I am going to be more intereseted in what the people in the current robes want, than in the non-choir members. Why? becasue the puprose of the choir is not to get to wear a flashy robe. The purpose is to add to the celebration of the worship service through your participation. The person who wants to to that doesn't care what the robe looks like, they want to sing. So I want to know what the people who are there, actively participating, want. If you aren't willing to wear whatever the others are willing to wear then that is your personal problem. We of the choir welcome you to join us but until you do you do not have a say in how we choose to be appear. The purpose of scouting is not to wear a nifty uniform. The uniform is an outward representation of who we are, and what we believe in. If someone beleives in it too they will wear whatever the uniform is that symbolizes that affiliation. If someone is unwilling to make that committment then they should not expect to be included in how the faithful dress. We will never please everyone, so lets at least be sure we please the ones who are unafraid to show their support.

Except for the pants Laurie you are pointing to options and not required uniform pieces. What is the problem with only wearing the sash on formal occasions? It is only designed to be worn for formal occasions. They don't have to wear the hat all the time, the neckerchief is optional. They are in the pants maybe for 2 hours one time a week and on rare special occasions. I am not nuts about suits and ties but I wear them when the occasion calls for it. Scout uniforming as a youth helped to teach me that there are times you wear what you wear depending on the appropriateness for the occasion. It depends on what we teach them and how it is taught. When the learner hasn't learned then the teacher hasn't taught. Side bar to OGE's post "But I would also seek out the scouts who have been second class for 2-3 years and ask them what they would like to see in a boy scout uniform." I would be more interested in what they would want to see in a real troop scouting program. Because if they have been Second Class for two or three years then there are bigger problems in that unit then the uniform will solve.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Eamonn nailed it.. Train Them Trust Them Let Them Lead Beaver also is correct. It is a process and different units can be in different points of the process at the same time. In fact, Scouting is designed so that the same unit is at different points of the process at the same time. A New Scout Patrol and a Venture Patrol will have different levels of boy leadership taking place. Where boy leadership will not take place is in a unit where adults have little trust or faith in the ability of today's youth. When an adult says "boys can't" it means "I won't let them". Take your child and run to a different troop.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I tried to post this as a spinoff but there is a glitch in the forum program and it would not post, so I am posting it here. With apologies to Eamonn BW In a discussion Eamonn started, a curious relationship has been assumed. It seems to be suggested that if a person wears the uniform correctly it is presumed he likes all aspects of the uniform. I am not convinced that is true. Rather, that folks who like and understand scouting are proud to wear the uniform to show that affiliation. No matter what you make the uniform, it will still be a uniform. Whether or not people will wear it correctly or completely has less to do with how they like the design, and far more to do with how they much they like the program and are willing to be associated with it. If you think that everyone prior to the current design wore the correct or complete uniform then you have a flawed memory of scouting history. Many people want to blame the scouts for not wearing the uniform, but it is the adult's role to implement and use the scouting methods, not the scout's. If anything has changed it is the attitude of many adults toward the uniform. Too many adults allow their personal opinion of the design, cost, purpose, and importance of the uniform to impede their ability to deliver the program and support the scouting methods. The scouts and scouters I know who steadfastly wear a complete and correct uniform, do so because they are proud to be a part of the scouting movement. The uniform could be made of sackcloth for all we care. Now some posters might counter "well what if the BSA decided the uniform wold be a sundress and feathered boa" as was similarly suggested some time back by a poster to argue this point. The difference is that, I have enough knowledge of (and confidence in) the BSA to know that such a decision will not happen. Wear the uniform not because you like the uniform, but because you like being a part of scouting, and the uniform is the visible expression of that pride. we return you now to the regularly scheduled thread discussion

"Does your Council include any cities over 100,000 with a predominately minority part of town? Does your District have a troop or troops in that area of town? Is your Council trying? What are they doing? If getting good grades is looked down upon, how are you going to sell the neckerchief and knee socks?" Yes. Yes. Yes. Our Council has a Scoutreach executive whose job it is to bring diversity to our program and to extend scoutings influence through untapped populations of our council. Each professional is trained in the goals and methods of scoutReach as well. In the District I serve we have started at least 4 units this year alone in neighborhoods with at risk populations and we are looking for the opprtunity to start a predominantly Spanish speaking pack to serve a specific school. I have organized 4 or 5 packs and troop s over the yaers in what many considered "bad" neighborhoods. Those units still operate today and have many successes. I do not sell socks. I sell the scouting program. It uses uniforming as a method to teach specific values and skills. Getting a scout who does not care about grades to wear scout socks, is no different then the challenge of getting an adult who doesn't accept the need for training to wear the uniform correctly. It's just part of the teaching process. Some will learn some will not, but that doesn't give the teacher option to quit teaching.

One Hour makes an excellent point. The meeting's success begins a few days before the meeting when the agenda is made. for something to happen, you must plan for something to happen. To plant the seed for decision making use "choices". Would you rather go rappelling this month or canoing? Slowly increase the number of choices and allow them to add a choice. Then let them use more of their own ideas to choose from, after they get into the habit of talking about what they want to do.

It is obvious to many in scouting that we need more diversity in our membership at every level and in every program. B-Ps vision of scouting changed from his original goal of better preparing young British boys for military service, to a vision of people world wide learning to become friends through the shared youth experience of scouting. While Scouting on an international level is doing a wonderful job of this, scouting in the US has not. We need to extend the influence of scouting beyond where we are today socially, economically and racially. While probably no one would be comfortable seeing a campership fund established for middle to upper-class Caucasian scouts, many councils have (due to their lack of membership diversity) accomplished just that. A good example are councils where scouting is primarily caucasian even though the majority of the population is not. The BSA has made many efforts in the last few years to expand scoutings influence. They have produced Spanish and bi-lingual handbooks and training materials, dedicated specific professional to the task of establishing units in non-caucasian communities, established funding for unit start-ups and camperships for non-caucasian scouts. What is keeping scouting greater success in this area is the attitude of too many volunteers who have difficulting substituting the values of scouting for their personal predjudices. One of the things Wood Badge is trying to do is to help scouters get past this personal barrier and help to fulfill B-P's vision.

I would have uniform changes developed, and/or reviewed, by key youth and adult member representatives of the BSA from councils across the country. They would be selected based on their positive attitudes regarding the program, an understanding of the purpose and function of the uniform, and their ability to represent their peers. Pretty much how it is done now. I would do so with the knowledge that no matter what was selected you will never please everyone. You can only make a sincere effort to do the job well. I would keep in mind that there are millions of members in the program, and even if you pleased nine out of ten people you would still have hundreds of thousands whining and complaining.

Decided this response was better suited to another thread. I moved it to http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewthread.asp?threadID=60440#id_60486(This message has been edited by Bob White)