Bob White

It may seem that negative political ads are something new but they aren't. In 1796 John Adams distributed flyers claiming Thomas Jefferson was everything from a drunkard to impotent and threw gambling and adultery in for good measure. Tasteles and appalling without a doubt, negative ads have been around for a long, long, time and for only one reason. They work. Oh, by the way, Adams won. Why do they continue? Because there is a certain portion of the population that is swayed by them, and it is that population that determines the outcome of elections. Ads will change after people change. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Scouter Paul wrote "Greeneagle5 You stated that you are both a ASM and CM. You can only hold one postion." That is not correct. If GreenEagle used the abbreviations he intended (CM and ASM), then he can hold both offices. It would mean he is a Cubmaster (CM) and an Assistant Scoutmaster(ASM). He is allowed by the membership rules to hold these offices simultaneously. The advancement rules exclude him from sitting on BORs for Tenderfoot through Life Ranks. Bob White

Ron, In case this wasn't made clear in the thread about troop by-laws, they do not mean a hill of beans to the BSA or the Chartered Organization, either by what they include or what they exclude. Only the BSA sets rules for the BSA, and the Charter Organization through its institutional head, Charter Organization Representative or assigned Committee chair, can overrule ANYTHING as long as they don't violate BSA policy. If the CO wants two females present, then they can say that. If the Co feels that having only one woman present is a potential problem, then they have the right to protect themselves against the problem. I don't see the problem myself, but I am not the CC so what I think is irrelevant in this situation. The lone female leader, if a parent, can still observe the activities of the unit without participating in the overnighter against the wishes of the CO. Or another female can be found in the unit to join in the outing so that the rules of the CO can be respected. This is another example of where the troop leaders forget that they serve the needs and wishes of the CO. The CO owns the troop, you volunteer to serve their scout unit. The CO agrees to follw the rules of scouting, and in this matter they have done nothing in violation of those rules. You can bring in the UC, the DE, or anyone else you want, but they have no authority in this matter. The best thing to do here is to accept the CO's (and CC's) authority and follow their decision gracefully. Allow them time to get to know the leader involved and see that their concern is needless.

The difference is you are comparing an event with your original proposal of property operation, and they aren't the same thing. You have a habit of changing horses mid stream.

The CC and CO have done nothing wrong. They have not violated any rule of scouting. This is a decision they have the authority to make and they made it. It is their troop to administrate.

Although Webelos don't actually graduate from Webelos 1 to Webelos 2 (Webelos is an 18-month to 2-year program) it would seem appropriate if you are recognizing all the other Cubs to find a way to include them as well. How about presenting them with a Boy Scout Handbook? It will help them prepare for their Boy SCouting experience and get help keep them interested during the last portion of their Webelos experience. BW

What I am talking about is this, If scout camps have much land that they can devote to a Venturing Camp why not run a Venturing Camp and invite crews from the hosting council as well as the neighboring councils. THEY ALREADY DO! Instead of every council running their own Venturing Camp. Camps are run by councils, and each council is an independent non-profit corporation. They have no choice but to operate their own camps. This could be helpful to the councils How? and every council that send it's crews to that camp could also have a representative on the camp committee for the Venturing camp. Read the part about the councils being independent corporations again. Maybe this idea could go down to the Boy Scout and Cub Scout camp activities too. Each council and there volunteer and professional staf are judged by that councils program, membership and financial growth. Is your council so thick with volunteers that you can send them to help another cpouncils program rather than the one serving your community? This may save a lot of money in the long run. How? The neighboring councils could send their Scouts and Venturers to that camp to work on camp staff. They already do that. The hosting camp could also charge a higher fee to cover expenses. They Already do that. Maybe even the OA could be on a multi-council level. And how to you propose they do that logistically? Most of what you propose is already being done. Some of what you propose cannot be done unless you chnage the way that the councils are structured nationally. The balance would just make it more difficult to get to events and meetings. Where is the benefit to Venturing in all of this?

Some very good stuff in here. What we will offer won't be decided for at least another month. But I really appreciate the thought and effort that went into everyones suggestions. As we get closer to the event I will post more information. Thanks again, Bob White

Actually the the words that "scouting is a movement and not an organization" was introduced by Baden-Powell early in the program's development. He said in in reference to the fact that he never expected scouting to develop the way it did. He wrote what he hoped would be an entertaining and educational book to encourage boys into the British military. Within a short time it was an international activity that touched a special chord of enthusiasm in boys the world over. It was the boys who first started to meet in groups long before there was any superstructure to spread or maintain the program. The movement concept was kept alive by William Hillcourt who often reminded professionals and volunteers that this was an ever changing ever evolving program to keep its methods and message relevant to today's youth. My point was that the program is not what an individual says it is, or determined soley within the unit based on personal likes and dislikes. Nor is the program based on the myriad of rumors and folk lore that surround it. I would offer that the BSA is not the volunteers at the unit level. Certainly we are the necessary and hugely important delivery mechanism of the program. But we are not the BSA. The BSA is the representatives of the charter organizations and communities that use the program, who function at the various levels of scouting who determine, design, and support the units throughout the movement. My comment was directed at the implication that some people feel they are experts at the program because they have a chestful of knots. That is not necessarily true. You can get all kinds of knots and never follow the BSA program correctly. You can chase boys from a unit by the score and still earn a knot. The leader who knows scouting is the one who uses the methods of scouting and delivers the promise of scouting. You will know them by there actions, do not be deceived by a chestful of knots. Those who entrench themselves within a unit and believe they can do whatever they like and call it scouting fool only themselves. Scouting is an educational process that uses specific methods in order to achieve goals. Those things are determined not at the unit level, but by the BSA. As unit leaders, we have a responsibility to learn and follow the program, not make it up as we see fit. No matter how many knots they wear.

Dana, Do you know of any council that has enough Venturing units to make that feasible? If a council were to give its entire summer camp program over to Venturing then what would happen to the summer camp program for the Boy Scout troops who surely greatly outnumber the Venturerers? It would not be financially responsible to send several hundred Boy Scouts elsewhere to serve only a couple hundred Venturing scouts. I don't think you have given this much thought beyond the "hey lets put on a show".

I will offer another point of view. The responsibility of the scout is to complete the requirements. The responsibility of the counselor is to make the merit badge interesting, informative, and to engage the enthusiasm of the scout in hopes he may develop a career interest of life long hobby from the merit badge. Certainly having the scout follow a bike path will meet the requirements. But if all his hikes are done on the same surface, on the same path what have you done as the counselor to enrich the merit badge experience? As a counselor you should be putting more into this than here is the easiest way to do it. Just because you cannot add conditions to the requirement doesnt mean you cannot guide the scout to a more meaningful and interesting experience in meeting the requirements. By the way you are not required to go with the scout. He is required to do the work and bring his report to you. The only YP you need to know is that the scout must have a buddy with him when he meets with you, and you are not to meet with him unless his buddy is there.

Dana keep in mind that property adjacent to a large body of water is very expensive. Few Scout camps are located on LARGE bodies of water. Most are small to medium. As has been posted previously, a lot of BSA camps do a week or two of "Venturing only" summer camps, or are in the development stage of doing so. And all those camps welcome out-of-council units. Whether those camps are convenient to you can be more easily discovered by your local council professionals then on this forum. So as to your origanial questions, Is there interest? Certainly there must be since councils are already doing it. How do you get your council to do so? Do your homework. What activities can your local camp offer? Do you have enough interest and membership to make it financially feasible to offer a Venturing only camp? What is being offered in this activity at surrounding councils? What kind of attendance can be expected from out-of-council units? When on the council calendar do propose this to be held? You can't just go in like Mickey Rooney's character and say "hey, lets put on a show". The council has a fiscal responsibility to make sure that decisions to do expensive projects, like staffing a camp for a week, have been based on some good business decisions as well as good program development.

Now we are getting somewhere. So first even though in your first post you said you wanted "To create a new program within Sea Scouting. Maritime Interest Sea Scout ships, to sail the bounding main, learn seamanship, oceanography, to serve an apprenticeship aboard a merchant ship,..." what you actually meant according to your last post was that you knew that part of the program already existed and " what I was trying to do is to see if there are any ships that do that part of the program." . Do you see you your posts don't get you the answers you want? You don't seem to know what the question is. First you say you want to create something new and then you say you already new that it was there. So you are a Venturing Roundtable Commissioner. (it's nice that you have your MS in commissioning but that is not something you DO, that is something you have. Neither is attending meetings a thing one DOES to support Venturing. It's what you do with the information from the meeting that counts.) You also are the UC for a crew. I would be interested in a typical agenda for your Venturing RT as we are not doing them yet in this council. How often do you meet? For the camporee you are planning, is this for Venturing units only? What are some of the activities that are planned? Perhaps you could provide a greater service, and certainly more concrete service to Venturing, if you focused more on local activities and responsibilities then on trying to change the program on a national level?

It's not like that is anything new. As a Scout in the 60s some people chose to link scouting to other uniformed topics of the day, specifically the military, and the police. Others want to talk about scouting and our use of Indian heritage and traditions. Others about how they were scouts for a short time but had a bad leader, didn't do anything, hated camping, etc.. People talk, and when they do some talk about positive things, some negative. its my observation that human nature shapes the conversations around scouting more than do current events.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Therma-rest is the best way to go. If you are serious about keeping packing weight down choose a pad length that goes from your shoulders to the the knee. Do the princess and the pea test, put a few marbles under the pad in the store and test it out. If you don't feel the marbles then the pad is thick enough to be comfortable for your body weight, or so I'm told, (I have a the thick camp rest model cuz I like to be comfy).

I also prefer theMSR products. I have used a Whisperlite for many years. It's efficient, compact, durable. Like me:)

Sorry Tim but you are at least 3 years too late for earning Merit Badges. I 'm glad to hear you enjoy hiking and camping it is a great activity. enjoy it. Consider being a Scout leader when you are ready to develop ethical decision making in youth. To us as adult leaders, outdoor activities are tools to teach values and ethics, the outdoors is the classroom not the lesson. Oh, right, the backpack thing. I used the same external frame pack from the time I was 22 until I was 43. (I paid $42 for it at an army navy Surplus store) years ago I bought my first internal frame. Its a north face, I dont remeber the model or capacity, I know it holds everything I need for a week and room to spare. In has a top load upper compartment, a face load lower compartment which is water proofed to hold the sleeping bag. it has 4 external compartment and and a cap that detaches and becomes a fanny pack. It has 6 sets of straps to adjust load, fit and sway, plus a sternum strap. It has two external mesh water bottle pockets and a dasiy chain down the face that I strap my sleeping pad to.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Sorry Tim but you are at least 3 years too late for earning Merit Badges. I 'm glad to hear you enjoy hiking and camping it is a great activity. enjoy it. Consider being a Scout leader when you are ready to develop ethical decision making in youth. To us as adult leaders, outdoor activities are tools to teach values and ethics, the outdoors is the classroom not the lesson.

Well you came to a good place for some answers. The reason we are asking is that the informatyion you are seeking is pretty common training in scouting for youth and adults. Since this is a scouting forum it seemed unusual questions coming from someone with a scouting background. You are more than welcome here and we are glad to offer our varied opinions. I still recommend you pick up a BSA Field book. It has been one of the most respected camping resources in and out of scouting for decades. It is a great resource for preparing you for a backpack trip. If you are looking at 7-10 days in the backcountry there are far more important considerations you need to be thinking about.

On average I would say most campers take too many clothes. Assuming moderate weather with chance of showers. A pair of boxer style swim trunks preferably in a fast drying, light weight material as supplex, A pair of breathable rain pants. 2 t-shirts, one long sleeve, one shortsleeve, A breathable rain jacket, a fleece jacket or pullover. A hat with a wide brim all the way around. 3 pairs of liner socks, three pairs of boot socks (one to wear, one being washed, one fresh pair to change into). A well broken pair hiking boots for the trail. A light weight pair of tennis shoes for in camp. (I like to have a pair of fleece gloves for chilly mornings and nights. At least 1/2 gallon of drinking water. (Never go hiking without clothes or water:) ) Higher altitudes or more severe climate will require additional clothing.

Tim, You don't mention if you are a scout leader or not. If you are I recommend you attend Introduction to Outdoor Skills, and whether you are a scouter or not check out the BSA's Field Book. Can a one pack carry more than another? Probably, but it would depend more on the construction and capacity of the pack more so than just one element of whether it is internal or external frame. More important than what the pack can carry is...what can you carry. The recommended load is 25% of your body weight. packs have lots of compartments for a good reason. Why does your dresser have more than one drawer? Why not just put everything in one bog drawer? Because, what happens when you want something at the bottom? Packs have multiple storage so that you can conveniently get to everything you need, without unpacking every time you want something. Can you pack a sleeping bag inside? Yes on some, no on others. Can you pack a tent inside? Which tent? Which pack? Can you fit a lot inside? If you are serious about this you will learn not to pack a lot, you pack what you need. Which pack is best? I don't know. Which car is best? What tool is best? What color is best? It has nothing to do with best. Which one do you like, that does the job, that you can afford?

The original post bases its question on the false premise that the Charter Organization Representative is a member of the committee. While the COR (or CR) may dual register as a committee member they are not, be virtue or being the COR, a unit committee member. They are in fact a member of the Disrict Committee. You can read the Troop Committee Guide and the Cub Scout Leader Book to see that nowhere in the job desciption or duties is the COR referred to as a member of the committee. Would I let the COR sit in on a BOR? Sure, in fact there are times I would want him/her there. Do they have a say in the scouts approval for advancement. Only if A) they register as a committee member, which I would only recommend in a new unit just starting to recruit, or B) It is an Eagle Board.

I am very sorry to hear of your loss. My sympathies to his family and friends. Consider having everyone bring a piece of fire wood to the circle (or have a supply on hand. As each person relates a positive memory of the man have them add thier wood to the fire. After you have gone around the cirle, point out how the fire has grown larger brighter and warmer through the memories of him. remind those in the circle that this is the gift your scoutmaster has left with each of them. Memories that will burn bright for a lifetime. Images that will warm them. Have a moment of silence then sing Scout Vespers and dismiss, and let the fire burn-out on its own or extinguish after everyone has left.

I am not avoiding your request I just want to give you the most accurate answer I can and my materials are still in the possesion of one of my training team members. Two really big hints that the committee was in error has been given to you already. First, the BSA determined the committee was wrong and that the scout should recieve the award. In addition, after see the facts presented by you, without any input from the mom, It was clear to me that the unit was wrong and it seems I correctly anticipated nationals response. If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck then it is probably a duck. Until Never judge knowledge by counting knots. "Scouting isn't what you 'think' it is, Scouting is what the BSA 'says' it is.

KS, Is there any evidence (not opinion) that a similar method has not been used in the past aor is not in place now? BW