Bob White

Still straddling the fence Dozer? No part of the G2SS is about what injuries will be covered by insurance. The G2SS is telling you two things. First it is a manual of "best practices". Those items printed in regular type that help you understand the safest way the BSA has found to participate in an activity while avoiding or maintaining a low rate of serious injury. Secondly, it is a record of BSA Policies regarding safety. These are printed in Bold Type. The are procedural mandates that if ignored will endanger your membership and/or your liability umbrella protection which is provided through the BSA and paid for with your annnual registration fee. AT NO TIME is the scouts accident protection at risk. Your biggest problem Dozer is not how the rules are written, but your miscomprehension of why they were written and what they affect within the unit's program and the BSA.

Apology accepted and appreciated Dozer. Do not let the fear mongers get to you. The volunteers and professionals who determine BSA policies are mostly experienced leaders and parents. Their concern is for the quality of the program, the quality of the activities and adventures of the scouts and the safety of other peoples children who are entrusted to our care. If camping below 40 degrees is ever banned it will be due to abuses in camping methods and training by volunteer unit leaders not by a random decision of lawyers or insurance companies.

No need for that to be the last question. There is a link just above the top right hand corner of the first post in a thread that says "monitor this thread by e-mail". I have not used it in some time and according to another thread at this time it is not working. And yes, I did have to look up the page #. The knowledge is not in memorizing the page but in knowing where to look.

You will find the correct answer on page 20-6 of the Cub Scout Leader Book. The Bear Cub receives a red bead for every three achievements he completes.

Dozer writes "So a group of boys want to play laser TAG, they shouldn't because BSA says it's detrimental to their mental health." An interesting claim, although totally baseless. Nowhere has the BSA made that claim. He continues,"They'll teach you how to shoot rifles and shotguns," True, but NOT at each other. Then this age old philosophy,"Knock it off, boys learn from experiencing their mistakes." True again, BUT NOT in matters of safety when in the BSA. To allow that to happen would be very irresponsible leadership. And who is to blame? Here are the culprits according to Dozer. "OSHA, insurance companies, and parent lawyers, have stifled a once exciting program." OSHA is an agency that enforces governmental regulations designed to protect employees. It has NOTHING to do with the scouting program or its operation. What has stifled scouting are leaders who do not deliver the program correctly. Another forcast for the future includes,"We'll teach you CPR but don't use it the victim could die and you could be sued for trying to save them. Perhaps Dozer is also also unaware of the "Good Samaritan Act" which protects the person administering emergency aid as long as they stay within the boundaries of their training and abilities. So the situation he suggests is highly exaggerated and protected by the laws of the land. Mr White loosen up, did you write G2SS or what?" Mr Dozer, wake up. You have volunteered to be an adult leader in the BSA. That charge comes with certain responsibilities. Not the least of which is obeying the policies of the BSA as you agreed to when you registered. And No, I did not write the G2SS. Is it your opinion that in order to understand the rules one needs to have written them? Or, that if someone cannot comprehend the purpose of a rule, the fault automatically resides with the book rather than with the reader? Bob White

and that would be fine. The nose thumbing, of course, is not mandatory.

Aggie, Don't try to drive two cars at the same time. These are two different programs. Troops cannot have coed outings as described in ASM1's post without violating the BSA membership regulations. Running two programs together is a simplistic solution for the adults that does nothing for the needs and characteristics of the individual youth groups they are designed to serve. Sure you can have the same charter organization and the committee members can dual register on the second charter. But that is not "merging the programs" as you inquired about. The program is what you do with the scouts and how you do it. You can no more merge a troop and Crew than you can a pack and a crew. As I pointed out before they have unique methods, leadership structures and responsibilities, membership rules and different advancement programs. The solution to a weak program is not to to merge it but to fix it. Retrain the adult and youth leaders, follow the program recommendations, improve the activities. You can't fix a poisoned well by mixing it with good water, you will just end up with more bad water.

Aggie, The two programs have different advancement programs, different membership requirements, different leadership structures, and use different methods. What part or parts does the leader feel could be merged?

We have had this discussion before but just to recap it is a matter of behavior modeling. It is a function of the BSA to model behavior for scouts that reflect the scout Oath and Law as well as its principles of safety and training in it activities. It is not logical to think that you can teach scouts that you can point weapons at people as well as targets and still maintain the level of safety that the program maintains for its participants. AS far as how this information is spread, there has been information in scouting magazine, it is on line and in print in the Guide to safe scouting. Trained leaders have been instructed to have a copy of the G2SS at ALL activities and to read the appropriate regulation PRIOR to the acvtivity. The leaders of the unit should have read the G2SS before participating in the prohibited activity. As to what can happen.. Violation of the Safety regulations of scouting first and foremeost endangers the health and safety of the particpants. Beyond that you risk the loss of the Liability protection provided for the registered adults and the Charter organization, needlessly exposing yourselves to financial losses resulting from lawsuits. Lastly it engangers the adult leaders' membership in the BSA. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

I have to disagree FirstAider. The handbook says to treat as a wound which would include cleaning and covering. In the case of a poisonous bite it also says to lay the victim down and keep him calm, which would slow his circulation. The handbook information is sufficient for a beginner to lend aid in a emergency situation. A person following the first aid steps in the currenet handbook will certainly do more good than harm to a victim. You need to keep in mind that the requirements up to First Class are just the first step in 7 years of continual training. Each scout has the handbook to use as his reference guide when learning these basic steps. The scout is going to be tested on the contents and methods in the handbook. You need to teach the handbook for this beginning phase of advancement.

Eamonn, Might I suggest a sit down meeting with the council Key-3 (Council President, Council Commissioner, Scout Executive), and let them know of your concerns and conflicts. Whether you leave or stay it would be worth you time to try and influence a change in the way the Field director behaves or in who the field director is. What have you got to lose?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

"It's my understanding that the Scoutmaster should be doing that as part of the Scoutmaster conference." I am not aware of any instruction to do that in any BSA resource or training syllabus.

What level of first aid were you teaching? If you were working with new scouts I would say stick to the methods in the current handbook that they are required to know for advancement. If you are acting as a merit badge counselor I would say teach what the MB handbook tells you to do. If you were just asked to teach first aid in general I would recommend you ask the person who arranged for you to present, to give you some direction as to the audiences needs and expectations so that you can share the appropriate information.

I think you misunderstand Proud Eagle. The "What" is the rule that Laser tag is a prohibited activity. The "Why" is the BSA has determined that "the pointing any type of firearm (including paintball, dye, or lasers) at any individual is unacceptable". They make one exception, that of law enforcement training.

"However, he has since taken on the roll of Webelos leader." I am afraid that is not possible. He was approved to be the Webelos Leader by the Pack Committee Chair adn the Charter Organization Representative. The people who caused this problem are the only ones who can fix it.

"As for an actual official reason, there is none. BSA does not by any means explain why it does what it does." How can you say that when you printed their reasoning? "Pointing any type of firearm (including paintball, dye, or lasers) at any individual is unacceptable." That is the official BSA position and their reasonong behind it.

Which rule would that be Ron?

in addition... There are lots of positions that adults are required to hold. What Iposted are the minimum registered positions that need to be filled to complete a charter.

in addition... There are lots of positions that adults are required to hold. What Iposted are the minimum registered positions that need to be filled to complete a charter.

CR, SM, CC and two MCs in a troop. The CR can double as CC bringing it down to 4 but the IH does not play a role in this since the IH is not required to hold membership in the BSA .

Water...vital for life or a dangerous and deadly substance? It all depends on how it is used. Competition...healthy or a detriment to character building? Same answer.

Scouter Paul, It only takes a miniumum of 5 registered adults to charter a troop, regardless of whether the IH and CR is one person or two. The IH is not a registered position in the BSA. Even this is no longer the case in some instances. The local council executive has the authority to alter this provision in some situations depending on the availability of qualified adult leaders.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Merlyn, Truth be told I didn't mention it because I didn't know it. The article I read on the subject only mentioned the points I put in my post. However, if it will make you feel better personally you are welcome to say that a covert group of masked liars in scout uniforms, dropped from Christian financed stealth helicopters, forced me to omit the word athiest, by bribing me with illegally obtained government grants. Feel better? I do.

I would think that someone or from the posts I have seen, a cople people, confused Scout Badge with Tenderfoot Rank. I'll bet the boys got the Scout Badge not Tenderfoot. Tenderfoot requirements are far more than what is covered in Webelos. In addition it requires A troop Board of Review and they will first need to earn the Scout Badge any way. So I think the whole thing is a misunderstanding.

FScouter, GreenEagle didn't say he was "a CM with ASM duties". Those words were by another poster, but that is not what GreenEagle wrote. Please go back and look at his post. He said he was a CM, a Parent, and an ASM A CM is a Cubmaster, a Committee Member is designated as an MC. Regardless of which GreenEagle is he is excluded from any BOR other than Eagle Rank because he is an ASM.