Bob White

He cannot meet with the counselor without a blue card, He cannot receive the blue card without the Scoutmasters knowledge. Why would the Scoutmaster give him a blue card and not sign it? Acco, it is not for permission, it is a program check. It verifies that the SM knew he was working on the topic and had an approved counselor. Just as the receipt signature is not permission to advance. It is merely a receipt for the scout, another program check. To say that merely being needed to advance makes it a permission is incorrect. He needs a buddy present to meet with the counselor, does that mean he needs his buddy's "permission" to earn the merit badge?

(with typos corrected) Eaglescout03, I am sorry for you if that is what scouting has taught you of leadership. By that logic, 12-year olds cannot lead 12-year olds, 13-year olds can't lead 13-year olds, and so on and on. Experienced scout leaders will tell you that leadership is possible in varying degrees in scouts of all ages, if they are taught and given opportunity to practice. I hope that as an Eagle Scout you learned that you had the ability to reach goals, work and lead with people of several ages, not just those whose younger age gave you the power to "tell" them what to do.

No, The BSA program says "the scout chooses the merit badges he wamts to work on" he does not require persmission. he is however required to obtain a blue card and to get verify with the SM that he is going to a registered and approved counselor. The Scoutmaster is signing that he/she knows the scout has a blue card and has verified that he has the name and contact number of a registered, approved, merit badge counselor, and that he understands the merit badge process. The merit badge counselor signs to show the scout has completed the requirements (or initials it for partials) and then any unit leader may sign the scout's portion as a receipt that the card was returned to the unit for their records and his recognition.

Although I am no an opponent to sheath knives earthman I do understand the preference for pocket knives. As you point out, good sheath knives are well made with durable protective sheaths, but most boys do not carry "good" quality sheath knives. In addition it is a matter of the right tool for the right job. Sheath knives are for the most part, hunting knives, and since packs and troops do not hunt it is an excessive tool for the purposes they would use it. A standard size pocket knife is lighter weight, more compact, and multi purpose, making it a more prefered camp tool for scouting. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Eaglescout03, I am sorry for you if that is what scouting has taught you of leadership. By that logic, 12-year olds cannot lead 12-year olds, 13 year olds can't lead 13-year olds, and so on and on. Experienced scout leaders will tell you that leadership is possible in varying degrees in scouts of all age is they are taught and given opportunity to practice. I hope that as an Eagle Scout you learned that you had the ability to reach goals, work and lead with people of several ages not just those whose younger age gave you the power to "tell" them what to do. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

The only thing they learn about the various program levels in NLE are the handshakes, salutes, signs, Oaths, and methods. Again. since Varsity is the same as Boy Scouting, all you need to do is tell them they are the same. NLE does not cover the programs themselves beyond what is explained during the discussion on methods in the first section.

Because, as explained in the training, Varsity Scouting uses the same methods as Boy Scouting. The only time the programs are spoken of individually is as the different set of promises or methods are discussed, and during the excercise with the activity examples. Since those two programs use the same methods there is no need to repeat them separately in the training. Knowing you had a Varsity leader in the group you simply needed to point the similarity out to him at the appropriate point in the presentation.

A nice compact and accurate way to understand the relationship comes straight from the recently maligned BSA training. (Methods)How we do, (Aims)What we do, (Mission)Why we do.

OK Eamonn, but how do you really feel? As you know I agree with your view 100%. I just felt that dragging a rat into the discussion was unfair to the rat. BW

Three gold stars and a smiley face sticker for Eamonn. Boy run does not mean adult abdication.

You are correct Eamonn. The various methods of each of the scouting programs are first discussed in New Leader Essentials and are then referred to again during each of the leader specific courses. One of the areas of the Scoutmaster Leader Specific Course that does this is the Advancement Chapter where the presenter is instructed to lead the participants through a review of the Boy Scout Methods to point out how they all are related to advancement in some way. The purpose being to show that advancement happens as the scout participates IF the program uses the methods of scouting. While it is important to follow the syllabus and to make sure that the learning goals of the course are achieved, the BSA does not require a word by word adherence. Nor does it require that the same teaching aids be used by each instructor. What is important to remember is that this is BASIC training, not final training, or all encompassing training. It is also necessary in most cases to teach the course at the most basic level for two reasons. First is that scout volunteers come from every imaginable walk of life and we deal with a variety of skill and educational levels within each group we train. It is impossible to teach to all levels at once. Secondly, even if the course includes Eagle scouts, their understanding of scouting is from a totally different vantage point than that of an adult leader. Another thing to remember is that experience does not equal knowledge. There are many scouters as we all have met or come in contact with through this forum with years of experience who haven't a clue how to deliver a scouting program. As trainers we are there to present the BSA program and its resources as clear and as informative as possible. Often times those who say they got nothing from the training came with the intention of taking nothing from it. They are happy in their kingdom and have no enthusiasm or openness to learn the BSA program. By the way if I could be allowed I would like to address some huge misconceptions. 1). The instructors read from scripts, read from flip charts, played video clips. Sometimes the wrong people are selected to train just as the wrong people are sometimes selected to lead. The tapes are used to insure that all key info gets to all participants who take the course. 2). The information presented was straight from publications that we could read for ourselves. And if everyone read the books you make the trainers very happy indeed. But most do not. 3). The instructors were volunteers teaching fellow volunteers on how to make the lives of paid Scouters easier. See answer one. There is no training section that implies or even touches on that topic in any of the BSA training courses...EVER. 4). Not one paid Scouter showed up during my 4 sessions of the two courses I attended. let me make this point perfectly clear...SO WHAT! they can't be at everything and they have enough to do than to be at every training course. You have no inkling of the number of different course put on by the training committee. If the District Training team is doing its job even the training chair could never be at every training course. I can think of 3 training course in the last year that a DE has been at and we have done over 70 courses in that time. 5). The information presented on how to work with/teach Scouts was all common sense, especially if you were a Scout, and if you have held leadership/instructor positions in the past. Again we as volunteers come from all walks of life and if you don't know it by now "the trouble with common sense is it ain't common". AND again we teach classes of mixed experience and must teach to the least experienced. 6). When a question of canoing policy came up and the instructor gave an incomplete answer, I attempted to give the fellow ASM more info and I was told by the instructor that it would be covered in outdoor skills. But his troop was going canoing in two months, and the next skills course was still unscheduled. The instructor should have offered to address the question during a break or after the course had concluded. We are trying to be mindful of our time commitment to the participants and the paramount goal is to share the course related information first. A canoing question was not appropriate to the basic training purpose, but an opportunity to address the scouter's need could have been negotiated quickly and then return the conversation to the training at hand. I apologize for the length of the post and thank those who hung in with me until the end. BW

Aggie Scouter, Water Map Tire Repair Kit Wrench First-Aid Kit ALSO Shelter Sleeping gear food food prep materials fire strarter Sun screen Insect repellant Rain Gear Toiletries Flashlight Remember that the bike trip must be done as part of a campout in order to fulfill the requirement.

Each of those options would require that the scout take some personal gear along if he were to "be prepared" properly for the activity, wouldn't they? I would agree that to require he carry the gear on his back would be adding to the requirements, but properly preparing for a camping expedition should certainly be taught as part of a camping merit badge, and I would think it should be an expected behaviour when the scout performs the required tasks.

We invite all parents to share in the fun of scouting with their sons. We as adult leaders take time at scout meetings and events to get to know as many parents as possible. When we discover parents with skills, resources, characteristics that we evaluate as useful for delivering the program we encourage them to come play the game of scouting with us. We currently have 14 committee members and 7 program leaders That represents about 40% of the families in the troop. We don't have 31 responsibilities to give to the others to do. As a new need comes up we will find the adult or adults best suited to do the job and invite them to come play. Laurie quotes a poster as saying ""We tell the parents that if they aren't willing to be involved that they had better find a new troop.". Personally I would never join a troop that had the rudeness to say such a thing to me. What do they know of my life, my skills, my time availability, my other responsibilities? Just because they chose to be a scout leader don't presume to order me what to do. If you want an adult to help then find them a job that fits their abilities and interests, invite them to join in, train them, give them the support and resources available to succeed and make it fun for them. We have enough bosses in our lives, how arrogant of a scout leader to assume he or she is one of them. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

"Council has responsibility to accurately enter the data." I hope you are not meaning to imply that the council employee or volunteer purposely tried to mess up the data entry? Or that you expect them to make zero mistakes? After all, no one is expecting that of the units. ScoutNet uses simple Excel spreadsheets for its record storage. That means that it can import comma delineated files. Talk to you registrar to see if it is possible to organize your data stream to match their columns so that your records can up imported. Your right it is a shared responsibility let's make sure to accept the share of mistakes as readily. As far as the form why not just build a word template that dupicates the form?

"I just worry that some of them come from a merit badge factory type troop." And some do. Some also come from troops who are to liberal in following the program, some come from parents who push, and some are just goal oriented scouts. The point is you cannot tell which is which based on age. And none are the fault of the scout. Your personal opinion is irrelevant. It is not your award to give. The advancement program and its recognitions belong to the BSA and each scout need only to satisfy the BSA requirements to be eligible to advance.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

The goal of the Patrol Method is to give every scout an opportunity to develop character, citizenship, and fitness through the activities and management of a small, manageable peer group. Boy Run activities is a unique element of the Boy Scout movement made possible through the use of the Patrol Method. Boy run activities are just one result of using the patrol method, it is not the goal of using the patrol method.

To me, asking a Scoutmaster "How long do you intend to hold my son back?" is like saying to a thief "how much of my stuff do you plan to steal?" Isn't he in the wrong the moment he takes the first item? Isn't the scoutmaster wrong the moment he disregards the advancement requirements, policies and procedures of the BSA. The is no "acceptable" amount of time to "hold-back" a scout who has completed the official requirements. To suggest to the SM that there is an agreeable time period only empowers him to gig another scout another day. What your personal feeling is on 13 year olds has no place when it comes to actually dealing with the scout. Any boy who completes the requirements is as ready to receive the rank advancement as anyone else who has, regardless of their differing ages.

GIGO GIGO is a computer term for "Garbage in-Garbage out". It is used as as explanation of what causes many problems in retrieving accurate data. The right data was never put in. In scouting that can happen due to many reasons. The majority of which is the responsibility of the unit level volunteers. Remember that the only way the council can mess it up is if the person entering the data makes a mistake. But for that to happen they first have to get the data from the unit, and that doesn't always happen. Then they have to have been given the right data, and that doesn't always happen. We have 50 plus scouts in the troop and we find mistakes in our own records, imagine our council registrar having to track data, not on 50 scouts, but nearly 11,000 scouts. John makes a good point that you should confirm the records on a regular basis. But let's not have the impression that the problems he is discovering were caused just by the council staff.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Think about that Beaver. Do you really want to ask someone to do the job, show them the resources, get their application, only to have the CO tell you they do not approve of that operson? Thats not a second visit I want to make. Yes, get the CC and COR or IH's signature after the applicant signs the application, BUT get their approval on the individual before you offer them the position.

The biggest hurdle to successful training, and successful unit operation for that matter, is not the content of the training syllabus or the resources of scouting. The problem resides in the heart and heads of some trainers and participants. And unfortunately those two things are not BSA issue. They come with the individual. Some come fully functional and some do not. Mandatory attendance is not the answer. Selecting the right people for the right job is the only solution. The goal of training is not to see how many you can get to attend. The goal is to teach them the information. There is no difference between 5 people going to a training course and understanding the information, and 50 people forced to go and only 5 learning from it. If only the people who want to do a good job take training we will get the same program results as if every volunteer took it. The only difference is we will save a lot of money handouts. lastly, people who do not like, do not know, or do not use, the scouting program certainly should not be entrusted to teach it.

The primary purpose of the background check is to screen out convicted felons and sexual predators. But they have to have been convicted to be listed. Convicted abusers are the proverbial 'tip of the iceberg'. Most child abuse is never reported to the proper authorities and many that are are not convicted. You would be surprised the number of applicants who make do not give accurate information on the references. They are counting on the fact that no one follows up on them. To often those responsible will look at who is listed and if they are familiar with the name, or impressed by their position, approve the application without any follow up. I also have to wonder what kind of questions are asked when pessimistic, people who talk negatively of scouting, parents and youth, are approved for membership. Did someone think that the person would change once he paid his membership fee? The unit has a responsible to select appropriate, qualified, leaders. If you do not follow up on references and seek out people with the characteristics needed for good scouting then you will get what you deserve in the quality of your program.

Nicely explain to the scoutmaster that it is the BSA's responsibility to determine what it takes to be an Eagle scout and that your son has met those requirements. You would appreciate him setting aside his personal opinions and following the advancement policies of the BSA program. No threats, no raised voices just a quiet request. If that fails you should contact the Council advancement chair and explain that the SM is adding a nonexistent age requirement to the advancement and that you would like to begin the Eagle appeal process and have the Scoutmaster conference waived, (your son has in fact had the conference. The scoutmaster agreed that he had completed the requirements but counseled him that he was too young to advance. The SM has merely refused to sign that the conference took place),and convene a special board of review to consist of scouters outside of the scoutmaster's influence. I am sorry this has happened to your son, I hope you can work things out quickly. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

The link provided above leaves out the approval process. before visiting the candidates they must be approved by the Committee Chair, and either the Charter Oganization representative or the Charter Organization Institution Head. A vote of the unt committee is not required. Approval by the CC, and COR or IH, is.

The problem is not the training. I have taken, and taught on numerous occasions, every version of Scoutmaster training since the mid 1970s, And it has barely changed in its content. It has always been about 7 hours of classroom followed by a weekend outdoor course to learn skills and operate as a patrol. It was like that 30 years ago, it is still that same training platform today. 30-years ago there were scout leaders who "got it" and ones who didn't and many in between. That is still the same today. Not everyone is cut out to be a mechanic, or a carpenter, or a doctor, or a teacher, or a scout leader. The difference is that other vocations have a weeding out system that removes most of the incompetent members early on in their career. Scouting does not. As a volunteer it is easy to linger on regardless of how bad you are. Charter organizations and key unit volunteers, for the most part do not take the task of 'selecting' leaders seriously. They are willing to let anyone be their child's role model if it means less work for them to deal with. To often the cry goes out "we need somebody to be the scoutmaster". They get what they ask for some body. What they should be looking for is Somebody Special. If you attend training, read the Boy Scout Handbook and the Scoutmaster Handbook, have access to supplementary training like Roundtable, and you still can't figure out what scouting is all about, it's time to quit blaming scouting and accept the fact that being a scout leader probably isn't your calling.