Bob White

Welcome dluders, (intersting name) Forget the hazing part and lets cut to the meat of the issue. No unit, council, district or individual has the authority to alter the advancement requirements. The unit has added a requirement, and that is a violation of the national BSA advancement policy. You are right that the requirement calls for active, but your rule fails to consider the needs and characteristics of the individual scout. I don't know what you talk about during your scoutmaster conference's but this would be a great topic to discuss. What is active for this particular scout? What committment or participation goals will he set for himself? Have him write his committment down in his handbook to remind himself. How does that work for you?

"I didn't say they do, explicitly, or even consciously. I said "by implication." The distinction is that you suggest that "they" are making the implication, and the fact is it is your implication and not theirs. They are not a part of the BSA, why are you determenined to make them match each others rules rules? They have different missions and so who they allow as members differs as well. An 11-year-old boy cannot join APO. But how can that be? By your logic since they are based on the same values they should accept the same membership. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

So how much meeting time would you say was centered on earning the Family life merit badge? That is where my concern is. If you did a few requirements over a month of theme related meetings and at the end said, "by the way, some of the things you did this month were requirements from family related merit badges such as the Family Life, Home Repairs, Geneology, and Pets. If you want to learn more about these badges you can borrow the book from the troop library or see the Scoutmaster for counselor information". I would say that was a good understanding of the troop program and the advancement method. If however you say "next week we have the counselor from the Family Life Merit Badge coming in to get you started." I would say that you are choosing the merit badge for the scout and giving them the implied choice of working on that merit badge, like it or not, or staying home and do something they like to do. Something to consider.

NJ Note that I said political goals not value based goals. The BSA has no political interests. They do not look to control a government, elect a specific party, or make any rules outside their own membership. They have not tried to pass or alter any legislation that would infringe on the rights of others. Now if you were talking about the efforts of political activist organizations who seek to alter the constitutionally protected rights of the BSA, now there you would have a solid point. That is indeed political. You made a nice effort, but it lacked accuracy.

Merlyn, I can see that your mind is made up, I will no longer attempt to confuse you with facts.

Our troop even has a recommended "procession" of Eagle MBs, staggered at a rate that makes them more attainable for the Scouts. EagleKY, Why? Do you see merit badges as a responsibility of the troop? Scouting does not. Certainly not a 'scheduled' basis. Each scout should have the ability to choose his own path to Eagle. That includes which required merit badges he does, and when he is interested in doing them. Why not just introduce a taste of a merit badge in conjuction with the monthly program theme or as related to an adventure, and let the scout decide if he wants to proceed further? The goal of scouting is not about making Eagle scouts. That is exactly the path you are taking the minute you start talking scheduling Eagle required MB classes. There are far more exciting things to do with a troop than merit badge classes, and they will do more to motivate advancement than the class will. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

How can you ask if the Girl Scouts are ati-semitic when the headline is "Jewish Girl Scouts"? It seems to me if they were anti-semetic there wouldn't be any "Jewish" Girl Scouts. It's a complicated world we live in, and there are people who will try to use non-partisan organizations as devices to a political end. You cannot blame these organizations for being wary of that, or for not being as skilled in how to respond. Dodging politics is not what they are best at, or what they want to spend their resources doing.

Thats great Herms!!! I am a big proponent of the New Scout Patrol element of the Patrol Method. It has been very successful for me for years in troop scouting with an exceptional retention rate. IF you want more details on it feel free to private message me.

NJ The APO says that they are based on the values not that they mimic the values. They are a re separate organizattion that gives service to their community and continue to use the Oath and Law as a guide. As you have read they do not make any judgement on the internal processes of other organizations. so your assumption is totally unfounded. They use the Scout emblem with the permission of the BSA who recognizes and supports their mission. We have two large universities in our District with active APO's. We function together on several activities and get along just fine. They support our efforts and do not question our membership policies and we do not question theirs. Why should we.. they are a separate organization and can set whatever membership policies they choose, as can the BSA. Merlyn, For me to be lying I would have to be saying something that I know is false. As I have told you, I do not know that to be the case. In fact my experience and knowledge of scouting, which far exceeds your own, is quite the contrary. So continue your rabid accusations if you choose, but like the court case you sight, you have lots of accusations but at this point in time no evidence, only opinion. In case you haven't noticed, I put no stock at all in your opinion. On the bright side, the same law that permits you to have an opinion on the appropriateness of my values, allows the BSA to have an opinion about the appropriateness of yours. I think they have made the right choice.

Since when is it a problem for anyone to "apply" for a grant?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Herms, The New Scout patrol is the recommended way to handle new scouts and has been the recommended foramat for several years. It works great and as you anticipated is a mix of den and patrol elements that starts off more de-like and finishes at the end of 12-14-months patrol-like with the actice members achieving their First Class rank, or close to it. For more information attend your local Scoutmaster/Assistant Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training, and read the Scoutmaster Handbook.

My father-in-law is a retired brick mason. He said the saddest day on the job was when he realized he was suddenly building more jails than churches. Although never a scout he has always been very interested and supportive of my scouting participation. As he puts it. "it takes a craftsman to build something of value, but any jackass can knock things down." Merlyn, if successful in your mission, your legacy will be that you helped knock down a program that has benefitted millions of children, unfortunately you were not one of them. What a legacy to leave behind, that in your life you had only the ability to knock things down. Fortunately for you, I am one of millions of craftsmen (and women), and there are not enough jackasses in the world to destroy what we have built. I feel truly sorry for you.

I have a real problem with what the troop in acco40's example is doing. The job of a counselor is to coach and counsel BEFORE testing. Even the Red Cross does classes before it tests. So should a merit badge counselor. BSA Lifeguard is different. I would expect a certain level of swimming ability first, but that is not a merit badge and has a different purpose in the program. If the question here is whether a scout should be a certain level of swimmer before completing the merit badge. Yes, that is a requirement. but it is the Merit Badge counselor who has the SOLE authority to test and determine completion of a requirement. Perhaps the last time the scout was tested he couldn't swim but has since taken classes, or gained strength and is ready to move forward. Let the counselor determine the scouts needs and abilities, that is their responsibility.

Let's get a few things straight Merlyn. I have no reason to lie about such a thing. I am a volunteer and I have no vested intersest in the finances of the BSA. I am not a member of the council in question and gain or lose nothing either personally or scouting-wise by the outcome of this case. If you should get your fondest desire and live to see the dissolution of the BSA it would effect me and 1.5 million other volunteers only slightly. I would have more free time, and more varied wardrobe, and fewer mosquito-like annoyances like you to. I would still have my scout skills and values something that bothers you the most that you can never rid any of us of. I would still work to develop positive scout-like values in youth, something no adult ever did for you, and I would still work for the benefit of the community (and you and I define 'benefit' in totally opposite ways). I can only go by my scouting experience as a district and council committee member in four different councils. In every case, we never directly accepted government funding. What you continue to snipe at has only been determined illegal in your very narrow mind even before the courts have heard a shread of evidence. You have only the information presented by an opposing point of view and as I understand it trials and hearings are where most of the facts come out, not in the accusations. So I am willing to let the due process of the court system play its role first. How about you? Now please have the courtesy to either stick to the topic raised by the originator of thread and quit invading with your own little hissy fit. Yours in a still healthy and vibrant scouting program celebrating its 94th year in existence, Bob White

That is the accusation that has yet to be proven in court. Besides Merlyn you already have a thread on that, if you want to continue it do so there, and refrain from hijacking this thread which is about a different topic. Thanks,

Why not be honest with him and tell him what is bothering you. Maybe he will see the error of his ways and come around to your way of thinking. Maybe he'll tell you his side of things and you will gain a better understanding of him. Maybe you'll continue disagree and you will quit traveling in the same circles but at least you will both understand why.

Were you a Boy Scout prior to 1910? I only ask because Duty to God has been a requirement since then. NESA has been part of the BSA since its transformation from KoD. This is nothing new. Oh it may be new to you, but it is not in itself new. Why should the fact that the BSA holds a Congressional charter force it to abandon its constitutional right to free association? "It continues to "feed at the public trough". If, as it claims, it is a "private" organization not subject to anti-discrimination laws, it should quit asking the public and the government for handouts." Lots of private organizations get public funding larry. Easter Seals, MDA, the Girl Scouts, Salvation Army, YMCA, YWCA, even Greek societies like the APO get donations to continue their work. What government funding? Their are charter organizations that get governemt monies to bring educational program such as some of the BSA programs to its youth, But the BSA gets no money from the government. The BSA is one Scouting organization. It is not the be-all and end-all of "Scouting". It is in the United States. It never claimed to be the be-all, end-all at any time that I am aware of. Do you have evidence to the contrary? As far as the other approximately 200 scouting programs, each is independent within their own borders and are free to do as they wish. I think it is great that you have a personal opinion and have the courage and the tools to express it. Always remember it was scouting that helped you to develop those abilities. Now that you have your opinion developed, perhaps you should take time to learn the truth about the situation because you have some very innaccurate information about the BSA.

Any trained SM should have no difficulty being approved as a merit badge counselor for those merit badges. Once they have registered as a counselor they are free to work with any scout, even ones in the troop they serve. But yes, they need to be registered and approved for those specific merit badges.

"ScouterPaul's recently-resigned SM would have been the exact same guy if he referred to his Troop as "the Troop he served". " There is no way you could possible know that since that never happened. Peoples words do affect their actions and vice versa.

So the APO is a different organization with different rules. Were you not aware as the president of an APO chapter what the membership rules were? You are free to belong to any organization whose rules you abide by. Why should the APO, or the BSA for that matter be any different in that way?

My post was in response to a question directed to me in this thread by Dan. I had no intention of changing the topic of the thread to revisit a discussion that has already been misrepresented and blown out of proportion by others in its own thread. Please return the conversation to the original topic.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Very sorry for your loss Johnsned, you and he will be in our prayers tonight.

Hi Eamonn, A good lesson for anyone in a leadership position, whether council/district or within a unit. As we have learned on this forum the tone of a written message is often misunderstood. Personal contact is the most effective way to communicate when dealing with a problem in local scouting. Anytime I give an e-mail answer as a district representative to a local volunteer I always CC the members of the Key 3. They need to know what questions are being asked by the units in order to improve communications from their end, and I have a responsibility to keep them informed of how I represent the committee. Is it fair to say that a new DC may be needed?

"What ever reason he/she wants to prevent the scout from earning the MB I guess. Of course that is not correct with the goals of the program, but I'm not really sure the intent of the question. You are correct Eagledad. The point being that we were asked to give the correct answer, not one based on 'what if the scoutmaster wants to it wrong'. eisley, The number of incompletes might be reason for the scoutmaster to give counsel and guidance to the scout but not to deny him the opportunity to earn a merit badge. Keep in mind that the scout has until his 18th Birthday to complete his merit badges. Are you suggesting that if a scout, who has let's say 8 merit badges that are not completed, and he finds out that his Social Studies teacher this semester is a counselor for citizenship in the nation merit badge, and she announces she will work with any scouts in the class to earn it, that you would deny him that opportunity? Nowhere in the program does it even suggest that a scout is limited in the number of meritbadges he can be working on at any given time. Nor is it the role of the scoutmaster to stifle a scouts enthusiasm to learn.

I am curious eagledad, except for a situation where a scout does not meet the BSA qualifications for a specific merit badge, when would a Scoutmaster not sign or give a blue card to a scout who wanted to work toward a merit badge??