Bob White

Multiple bookings rarely effects the exact same group of people. Multiple events on the same day has liitle to no effect on a council's budget, poorly managed events do, but double booking is the least related factor in a badly managed event.

I am not saying you I am saying ANY leader. There are always going to be schedule conflicts. There will be times when there are two things you would like to do but you can only do one. It happens in and out of scouting. In your particuar case you are concerned that a webelos event and a Univefrsity of Scoutig are on the same date, when in fact your not going to either because you have a third choice outside of scouting that you are attending. So what does it matter to you whether there are two things scheduled that day or twenty? A Scout council serves a variety of subgroups so overlaps are commeon and they are a consideration of any activity committee. If I were the University of Scouting chairman and saw that of the weekends availbel for the venue I wanted that it meant booking the same day as a Webelos event, I would weigh the potential loss of participants to what I gain over choosing another date. Since the UofS serves a wide range of volunteer positions having a conflict that only effects one of those positions is not a big concern to the overall success of either event. To John who wants to hoist this task onto the executive committee rather ta the indvidual event chairs....good luck with that. This is not a task that belongs with the executive committee nor one they are likely to accept.

I'm with you Eamonn, it's easy to deliver an adventurous program without having to be be careless, and the vast majority of leaders do that just fine. But not all units are selective about the leader they choose, and it only takes one person with a lack of good sense to generate paperwork and regulations for the rest of us. But once the rule exists, it exists for everyone, and as trustworthy leaders we need to abide by them. The extremes we run into can be quite humorous in a sad way. We go from leaders who don't think scouts are allowed to use power tools, to leaders who give scouts power tools to use without making sure that they have the proper safety gear and turn them loose unsupervised. (The biggest safety offenders I see in Scouting are adult leaders on OA workdays.) A little knowledge of the Safety rules would solve both extremes, in the hands of a properly chosen adult leader.

What would the solution be SctDad, to schedule activities only on days when no one has any conflicting plans? I don't think that is possible. Life is full of choices, and there is no reason to feel you have to go to everything in a years time. It is not unusual for councils to have multiple events on any given day, especially on weekends.

The BSA has advancement based on a scouts abilities in the water when dressed. There is no BSA safety violation in jumping into the water with a any shirt on, not even a uniform shirt. There simply is no rule regarding this. What the Youth Protection Policies and the BSA Guide to Safe Scouting says about appropriate attire is unrelated to to this event. It is not a rule about swimming it is a rule about personal behaviour. Which is why it appears in a list titled "Barriers to Abuse" and is not in the Safe Swim Defense section. Please site a BSA SAfety regulation saying the scouts were were dressed improperly....there is none. Now did they violate a uniform regulation since this was a fundraiser? Possibly, but unless you know whether or not the council gave them permoission you do not know for sure. As far as one of the Scouts not liking it, that is not evidence of a safety violation. You could give them a pizza for lunch and have a scout not like it or even get sick from it, that does not constitute a safety policy violation. There is no BSA safety violation that can be seen in the video or that is evidenced in the story. I agree you entitled to your belief. But your "belief" has nothing to do with what the BSA safety policies actual are, and beliefs are not always correct. A child can believe that there are monsters in the closet. That does not make them right. While I accept that their fear is real, I also have to be honest with them and tell them that there really are no monsters. You may not like this activity and so you feel that it is against BSA safety policies, when the fact is, based on the evidence in the video, there were no safety violations shown at this particualr event.

Theere is nothing taught in NYLT that is contrary to the Patrol Method. In addition, no Scout is ever going to say "Teach us the 'traditional' Patrol Method." How does a scout know what is "traditional" and what is not when it comes to the Methods of Scouting? Unless of course "someone" has filled their heads with the incorrect notion that the Patrol Method used to be different in some way?

Without the typos Scoutnut Here is what you posted, correct me if it is not? "1) Proper preparation for high adventure activities - "Activities with elements of risk should never be undertaken without proper preparation, equipment, clothing, supervision, and safety measures." What evidence from the story and video tells you that there was not proper preparation, equipment, clothing, supervision or safety measures taken? The event appeared well organized. The activity area was reinforced and bordered, it was was not a huge distance to travel only a few feet, there were lookouts and rescue poles on both sides, the buddy system was used. There was nothing to indicate any of the things you stated. Then you said... "2) Appropriate attire - "Proper clothing for activities is required." According to the Guide for Safe Scouting the proper attire for swimming is to be clothed. No skinny dipping is allowed. The event was a polar bear swim, the scouts were indeed clothed for the event in accordance with the Youth Protection Policies of the BSA. The story and video showed no evidence of any BSA safety violations. What violations did you actually see?

Scoutnut Here is what youposted correct? "1) Proper preparation for high adventure activities - "Activities with elements of risk should never be undertaken without proper preparation, equipment, clothing, supervision, and safety measures." What evidence from the story and video tells you that there was not proper preparation, equipment, clothing, supervision or safety measures take? The event appeared well organizized. the activity are was reinforced and bordered, it was was not a hige distance to travel only a few feet, there were lookouts and rescue poles on both sides, the buddy system was used. There was nothing to indicate any of the things you stated. Then you said... "2) Appropriate attire - "Proper clothing for activities is required." According to the Guide for Safe Scouting the proper attire for swimming is to be clothed. No skinny dipping is allowed. The event was a polar bear swim, the scouts were indeed clothed for the event in accordance with the Youth Protection Policies of the BSA. The story and video showed no evidence of any BSA safety violations.

Why feel you have to go back to Green Bar Bill? The Current handbook doesn't say anything different.

First define what you mean by regular elections. 1) Nowhere does the BSA say when elections have to takle place or how often other than suggestion tenures ranging form 6 months to 1 year. Nowhere does the BSA in any training or resource make this the decision of the Scoutmaster, but recommends that it be determined within the Patrol or in the case of the troop officers by the PLC. 2) Figure out who is best suited and make them the leaders??? Boy, for someone who talks about the youth neing in charge do you notice how Kudu makes the decisions in his troop. The BSA Boy Scout program leaves that decision to a vote by the scouts that the eklected postion will represemt to the PLC, the troop elects the SPL, and the patrol mmebers elect their own PL. Having the Scoutmaster tell the boys who they representative will be is not youth leadership it is unblemished adult dictatorship. 3)Talk to the best Scouts and ask them to serve? Yes but not the Scoutmaster, let the Senior Patrol Leader and each Patrol Leader do that. This is about the Scouts leading not the Scoutmaster. The Scoutmaster's role is to council the junior leaders and help them deveop the tools to make those decisions themselves. Again of tell them who their cabinet is going to be then your are just dictating you are not developing their leadership skills. 4) Meet with the patrol leaders before an election. Heck meet with them before a campout, meet with them beore a troop meeting, meet with them after and event. You role as a leader is to observe, evaluate and coach. Met with them whenever the situation to develop them is right. How about having the SPL meet with the patrol before their election and remind them the importance of choosing the scout they believe is best suited to lead them and about what real leadership means. Never do anything that you can teach a scout to do. 5) Move the Candidate selection to the PLC. This is another excellent example of Kudu not knowing what the current program is. The BSA Bosy Scout program already recommends that the PLC set the requirements for holding troop offices. His suggestion is no great throwback to the past. This is what the program has always suggested. 6)Make the Patrol real. How about follow the Patrol Method. It has not changed since its beginning. Patrols are designed to function both independently and cooperatively. An element of scouting which, based on the posts on this forum, is grossly underused by the vast number of posters on this site. You do not need to follow the Handbooks from 1911. Todays Scouting program has changed very little in its leadership and operating procedures from those of the first handbook. Kudu knows what the program used to be but dioes not know the actual content of todays manuals or training. He assumes they are more different then what they actually are by focusing what he sees and reads on this forum rather than on the actual content of the BSA trainings and resources. He is right about some of the things he says that works, he is wrong about it not still being taught and supported in today's program. And for someone who professes Boy Leadership he writes a lot about "telling" his scouts what to do, rather that coaching them on how to make good decisions, and then letting them practice by making their own. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Scoutnut and John you have both assumed deficienies that are not in evidence. If you listen to the story and watch the video you see the buddy system used, they have adult supervision, they are wearing appropriate apparel for the activity, they are in a controlled area with borders, there are look-outs with rescue poles. In fact most the scouts are being assisted by holding onto the poles the entire time. There are no violations in evidence. Most of the conditions you say they are violating you have no evidence of. You are fabricating facts that are not in evidence. You have no idea how deep the water is, you do not know if they filed a tour permit or not, you do not know what the skill level is for the scouts who participated. Using only the facts that you are given in the story and viewed in the tape, there are no BSA safety violations shown at all.

Would someone please tell us what safety violations were incurred during this activity.

Wouldn't it be nice to understand a process? You don't want a mish mash of events, you want a program, and a program has a purppose a goal, a theme. A reason for taking place. It also seems that you have two distinct audiences who need different activities and information. On one hand you have fairly new Webolos, on the other hand you have Webelos that are about to (or should have alredy) crossed over into Boy Scouts. So the organizers may want to consider two distint activity tracks. The newer Webelos can have activity centers based on Activity Pins as suggested by Infoscouter. I would recommend focusing on the outdoor pins, Geologist, Naturalist, Outdoorsman, and Forester. You might also add Showman and work with this group on a campfire show. For the older Webelos have a track that includes skills they will need as they head into boy scouts: How to pack for a campout, fire building, Alternate fules stoves and lanterns, Tent pitching, Campsite set up. If you are at your summer camp then give them a tour and tell them about the activities they will get to do when tehy come to camp. Have a section where they learn about the OA, make fire starters. By having separate tracks the Webelos who come back next year will have a different progran to look forward to. And Each get a program that is useful to them. I am sorry if my questions caused you anxiety, but you need to consider that there is more to program planning then just spewing out activities. You need to ask and answer some questions first so that you have a foundation to focus your ideas on. Things such as Who, What Where, Why, When are things you should know FIRST, so that the activities are applicable to the people, the places, the resources, the environment, etc.. Once you have the topics, then you need to think about how you want to present each one. You need a variety of presentation formats to hold the attention of this age group for a weekend. This is a good time to understand and employ EDGE, as well as other instructional styles. BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

So this is going to be Webelos who have probably not completed their AOL yet is that correct. Because most of the scouts who have will have already crossed over to Boy Scouts by this time, is that right? It matters.

Would you care to explain your answer Mafaking? In mmhardy's post he fails to say how long the scout spent as a Scribe or as a Troop Guide. How is it you are so sure that he did not serve for the required 6 month total? His post does not supply the necessary facts for you or anyone else to be able to make that conclusion.

When will the event be held? What do you anticpate the the weather to be? What is the purpose of the event? Has a theme been determined? Where will it be held? What resources are available there?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Here is one version of the 13-fold Ceremony The first fold of our Flag is a symbol of life. The second fold is a symbol of our belief in eternal life. The third fold is made in honor and remembrance of the veterans departing our ranks who gave a portion of their lives for the defense of our country to attain peace throughout the world. The fourth fold represents our weaker nature, for as American citizens trusting, it is to Him we turn in times of peace as well as in time of war for His divine guidance. The fifth fold is a tribute to our country, for in the words of Stephen Decatur, Our Country, in dealing with other countries may she always be right; but it is still our country, right or wrong. The sixth fold is for where our hearts lie. It is with our heart that we pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. The seventh fold is a tribute to our Armed Forces, for it is through the Armed Forces that we protect our country and our flag against all her enemies, whether they be found within or without the boundaries of our Republic. The eighth fold is a tribute to the one who entered into the valley of the shadow of death, that we might see the light of day, and to honor mother, for whom it flies on Mothers Day. The ninth fold is a tribute to womanhood; for it has been through their faith, their love, loyalty and devotion that the character of the men and women who have made this country great has been molded. The tenth fold is a tribute to the father, for he, too, has given his sons and daughters for the defense of our country since they were first born. The eleventh fold, in the eyes of a Hebrew citizen represents the lower portion of the seal of King David and King Solomon, and glorifies in their eyes, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The twelfth fold, in the eyes of a Christian citizen, represents an emblem of eternity and glorifies, in their eyes, God the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit. When the Flag is completely folded, the stars are uppermost reminding us of our Nations motto, In God We Trust. After the Flag is completely folded and tucked in, it takes on the appearance of a cocked hat, ever reminding us of the soldiers who served under General George Washington, and the Sailors and Marines who served under Captain John Paul Jones, who were followed by their comrades and shipmates in the Armed Forces of the United States, preserving for us the rights, privileges, and freedoms we enjoy today.

Not a problem Chandler, Your cub doesn't actually have to know what the rules on how to play Eagle Golf. If you look at the requirement it is not to play Eagle Golf. The requirement is for the Cub to "make up a game" and play it with his family. The handbook gives the example of Eagle Golf and Beanbag archery just to give the example of doing an action game as opposed to a board game or a guessing game.

I think what troop555Eaglescout is trying to find out is what does the BSA consider a "high adventure" activity from a standpoint of when do rules regarding High Adventure apply. I think that definition is purposely subjective. It allows the host of the activity to dtermine the skill level and endurance required to do an activity within a reasonable degree of safety for a person of beginning or average skills. For instance canoeing for a few hours on a local lake although adventurous for a young scout of average skills would likely not be considered "High Adventure" by BSA activity standards. But, a weekend of white water rafting in class 4 waters would be seen as "high adventure" because it requires a higher skill level, greater physical fitness, and has a naturally higher risk level. Again it is the hosts decision. At a BSA National event, the BSA decides if it will institute high adventure rules. At a council event or on council property, it is the council that decides, and in a unit level activity it would be the unit that decides. As with most other aspects of unit program, the BSA relies on the maturity and integrity of the adult leadership to make good choices. Some will, some won't. Which again shows why careful selection of unit leaders is so vital to a quality scouting program.

There is no one official ceremony. Here is a link to one of them. It is used by the US Air Force. http://www.ushistory.org/Betsy/more/affold.htm

Thank you RJS, It's probably pretty obvious which posters are willing to think things through and which ones aren't, I appreciate your willingness to look beyond the fluff.

"As I have said over and over and over again: the boys are leaving because the units are not providing the program that BSA puts out there" SAY WHAT???? All you have done stosh is blame the BSA for not supporting the Patrol Method, and youth leaderership, and for dropping all the outdoors skills and all kinds of other fantasies. If you ever believed that the problem was the delivery of the Scouting program by some unit leaders then WHY do you argue with me every time I say it? "Every Webelos cross-over for me is going to be an Eagle scout." Now we are getting somehwere. That's not following the program either. Eagle Rank is not the goal or purpose of scouting, and you deciding for a scout what rank he will become, and what goals he will set, shows that you are as much an adult dictator as any untrained leader out there. You are part of the very problem that you rant against. How ironic is that(This message has been edited by Bob White)

"Maybe National needs to come to a pluralistic city to see some ways it already works." Do you know for sure that they haven't?

"Eagle scouts that don't camp? Boy leaders that don't lead. Eagle projects designed, directed and implemented by parents. Eagle projects that are basically a total waste of time." Where does the BSA allow that except for scouts with extreme medical conditions? Where does the BSA teach or support Eagle projects being developed and lead by parents? It doesn't. You are railing at the BSA when you should be condemning adults who do not follow the program, because that is where the problems you point to come from. The Patrol Method is still taught and supported by the BSA and buy many unit leaders, just not by all (a an unusually high number of those who do not use the Patriol Method seem drawn to this particular forum.) But this is nothing new, The BSA never had a point in its history when every leader knoew and followed the program...NEVER. I remember as a scout in the 60s being in awe at district and council events at the number of units that were adult commanded, and camped in nice neat squares while the troop I was in was being led by the patrol leaders and we camped and functioned as patrols and not one large troop. So the fact that some troops follow the progran and some don't speaks to the ability or lack of ability of the leaders. Use some common sense here. If the problem was that the program didn't still teach what you call "the old ways" Then NOBODY would be using the patrol method and youth leadership and all those traditional skills that are still in every handbook. The fact that we all have the same BSA resourcesa and the Same BSA training courses psroves that the inconsistencies are found in the skills of the leaders and not the content of the program. ">>> If a patrol wants to go to summer camp, 1) they can't register at camp as a patrol, 2) they need 2 adults and 3) I don't think this is boy led, patrol method, being promoted in any sort of fashion." Certainly stosh you have a more mature understanding of the world around you than that? The BSA did not create our litigious society they are just another organization that must operate with its rules. Just because you have to have adults present does not mean they have to be there telling the scouts what to do. The best things an adult can bring to any camp is a chair and a coffee cup. Their work should have been done long before the cars were loaded up, in the coaching and mentoring of the junior leaders. Again your grievance should not be with the BSA. They asked for just two the adults to be present not oomnipresent. Units that choose to take a swarm of adults and allow them to supercede the Patrol Nethodf do so because of their own lack of leadership skills, not because they were instructed by anything in the BSA to do so. ">>> I hear people complaining about electronics the boys are glued to. I hear about the parents that force their boys to get their Eagles. I hear about all this crap and yet very little about the boys that want to be there and want the program and don't get it because some bozo adult leader can't reliquish responsibility to the boys to run their own program as they have theoretically been taught" Where does the BSA talk about the use of electronic equipment or ban the use of it? No where. How can you noy understandt that that is the personal behavior of some leaders and has no relationship to anything taught in the BSA. Take Eagle92's comment abount not doing Patrol Activities without adults back in the late 80's or 90's because it was not allowed then. YES IT WAS allowed. I know because not only was I a Scout leader in a troop at that time but I was training Scoutleaders and Patrol Activities without adults leadership was in the handbook and in the training syllabii just like it still is today and has been since 1911. The program has not changed and neither have some leaders, they either do not know or do not follow the program. Eagle92 was not aware of it today or that it is supported in multiple handbooks and even in the Guide to Safe Scouting and Youth Protection. So the program did not change. Its just a newer batch of leaders not following it. "#1 thing I have learned in my journey was that kids will hang around a program as long as the program provides what is promised, they will hang around. As soon as it doesn't, they're gone." Finally a glint of understanding. Not all units ignore the program, or every unit would be losing scouts, and that simply is not true. Units that don't deliver the promise of scouting lose scouts, not every unit. And the promis is still there. Take a momemt abnd actually read the first few pages of the Scout Handbook. The actually read a Scoutmaster Specific Training Syllabus. On for the very first sections begins with "ARE YOU KEEPING THE PROMISE" it then instructs that the promise of advebture be read from the handbbok and the question is asked agaain, "re you keeping the promise?" it then goes on to spentd the longest segment of the training on the outdoor program. You DO NOT KNOW what the BSA says the Scouting program is. You do noy know the content of its training. You SEE others not following the program and you assume that the BSA has chaged it. You are right that not not all leaders are following the program, you are wrong about who is responsible for that. And you are wrong anbout the content of the program and you cannot identify an "old way" that is no longer in the program which is responsible for membership loss as you stated. You are worse then those who think the sky is falling, You think it already fell, despite the fact that it is still over your head. Or maybe because it is. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Jblake47, I see you have been visiting Kudu in his fantasy land. You did not answer the question. Not onlyare the things you say the program has switched to not exist in the training or resources of the Boy Scout program, you failed to give eveidence to your own claim. You said that the "old ways that the BSA has abandoned has cost them membership. But you have completed avoided telling us which old way that is. It is isn't the Patrol Method because that is still taught and supported. It's not youth independence because if you pay attention during New Leaders Essentials, it explains specifically that the the programs of the BSA are designed to move a youth from reliance on adults to self-reliance. So where is your evidence to support your fantasy? What "old way of scouting no longer exists that you say you can directly link to membership loss. What can you find in any BSA resource or training that supports your view that the BSA no longer uses the youth led patrol method? You have no such evidence because none exists. You are making it up in hopes that those reading it will be as unwilling as you to research the facts and simply be swept away by your emotional make-believe. (This message has been edited by Bob White)