Bob White

Eagle5, I am sorry if I didn't make this clear. We talk with each scout as an individual with different needs and characteristics and help him to understand what "active". The scout sets the goal. It is always more than 50%, but it is his goal not "our rule". The role of the troop committee is to support the troops program decisions. I am against any artificial rules other than the Scout Oath and Law, or those already provided by the BSA for their program. The win/win comes with the fact making and administrating a bunch of extra rule (usually poorly structured and unenforcable) takes a lot of time and energy that the committee and leaders could be putting to better use in serving the boys.

We live in such a large and diverse society how can you ever expect to answer this question? Every political action or decision effects different people in different ways, so everyone is going to have a different set of criteria to base their decision on. Heck you probably can't get 50 people to agree on the best ice cream let alone the best or worst President. In addition, the responsibility and demands on a President are seldom of their choosing. I dare say that I doubt any of us on this board are capable of making the kinds of decisions needed to lead a major world power. I have never elected a politician with the expectation that I will agree with every decision they make. I also know that many of the things blamed on the president would be better aimed at others, it's just that the President is a more interesting target.

As I see it Venturing (because it has relied so heavily on transfering existing boy scouts and Boy scout leaders, rather than recruiting new youth) as infected its advancement program with one of he same program problems that has infected too mant troops. Advancement is seen as something extra you have to do, rather than the residual effect of an active program. In fact advancement is what happens when you do scouting activities. Advancement in Venturing as in other scouting programs happens when you do scouting stuff. It's great to have fun and relax, there is room for that in all the programs. But scouting is a game with a purpose. Advancements are the milemarkers that you see when the activities you do follow the goals and program of scouting. Stop trying to advance, and instead do scouting stuff that travels you on the road where advancement is found.

Actually what thumper described is a specific el;ement of the Cub Leader Specific courses. They call it a "parking lot". The presenter has a board on display and the participants are given sticky notes so that any questions can be posted in the parking lot. Any questions not answered during the course are to be answered afterwards or the participant is to be directed to a resource where the answer can be obtained.

As a scoutleader if The only way I can achieve the goals of the program is to draw lines in the sand for advancement then I was a poor chice for the position. The role of the Committee is to see that the program leaders follow the methods, policies and programs of the BSA and to do regular and frequent boards of review. The role of the SM and ASM are nearly identical with each other except that the SM should be doing the SM conferences and merit badge process. Their role is described in the Scoutmaster handbook and in Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training.

I see it as a HUGE difference. Being present (in attendance), and being active are two completely different things. There is no attendance requirement in scouting. If you read the handbook it tells the scout that to be active you have to be there. If the BSA wanted to specify an amout they could have easily done so. The time is left unstructured purposefully to allow for the needs and activities of each scout to be weighed individually. The SM needs to talk to each scout. Setting any required % is no different then setting a minimum number of pull ups required for the fitness requirement. You cannot alter the advancement requirements. Let the scout (through cousing and advise with the SM committ himself to activity in the patrol and troop.

Everything is not black and white all the time; there are always shades of gray, which no official BSA policy addresses. With our troop as I explained, there are exceptions. So if you are willing to consider variances based on individual circumstances it's not really a rule is it? So why not just base your goals and evaluations on the individual needs and characteristics of each scout, and forget about typing a rule that you dont actually stick to?

She told us of many of the crafts she had done over the years and 1001 uses for toilet paper holders. She showed us all the diiferent binders she had from Pow Wows all over the country. She also spent a large amount of time selling us on going to Pow Wow. None of which are part of the Den Leader Specific Training Syllabus. The Den Leader training covers (and I am going from memory here, I will double check the syllabus at home.) Pack Structure Den Leader responsibilities, Characteristics of a good Den Meeting Den Leader recognitions Program Planning (bulk of the training) Advancement (second largest time slot) Uniforming (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Herms, If you saw a bad performance of Shakespeare would you immediately assume the script is bad? Now I am not saying that every BSA syllabus is a timeless classic...BUT..... Have you seen the syllabus, studied its intructions to the presenter, attended the training for presenters (Trainer Development/BSA 500)? Or, have you only attended a recent training session, gotten feedback from from a few people on the training they saw, and have now determined that the problem is the material and not the presenter? I for one have seen all of the current training presented many, many times by different people. And if the syllabus is followed, all the info needed to accomplish the purpose of the course is there. How well it is delivered has varied with the skill and comfort of the presenter. The longest session in the Den Leader specific training is on program planning. If your wife did not get that then the instructor did not follow the syllabus.

If a celibate homosexual wanted to be involved in scouting, would he be welcomed? Scouting does not care if a person has ever been married or not. Perhaps you meant chaste? The existence or absence of sexual activity is irrelevant for membership in the BSA. The condition is that if you are an avowed atheist or homosexual you cannot hold membership in the BSA.

Herms Scout A- Attends two troop meetings in a row and the Campout that weekend. While at the troop meetings he was disruptive. He was caught wandering through a class room in a section of the meeting place where he should not have been. No uniform or handbook. At the campout he snuck out of his tent and played pranks on other scouts during the night. He did not participate willingly in any of the patrol chores and forgot to pack many of the items needed for camping. Scout B missed one of the troop meetings because his family volunteered to to serve food that evening at a shelter for the homeless. While at the second meeting he put on a packing demo for the New Scout patrol and helped to clean the meeting room after the troop meeting had ended. The weekend of the campout he was competing in the IHSA Sectionals in High School Swimming and on Sunday was scheduled as an Alter Server at church. So he was unable to make this campout. By your troop rules Scout A has better Scout Spirit because WHY? He was there 100% of the time? The Scout Oath does not say "do your best" it says "Do your best to do your duty, to God and your Country". Nothing about to your troop. Scout Spirit, as instructed in the Scout Handbook, The Scoutmaster handbook and in Scoutmaster Training, is about "Living by the Oath and Law in Your Everyday Life" Now I ask you to consider. Which Scout Lived by the Oath and Law? The one with 100% attendance. Or the one with 33% attendance who was "helping other people", "doing his duty to God", and "keeping himself physically strong". Scout B was trustworthy, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, clean, and reverent. But your "rule" will reject all of that, because he wasn't even there even 49.9% of the time. Attendance rules cannot measure scout spirit. Attendance rules cannot measure activity. Attendance counts bodies, and that is all it does. You can only judge activity and spirit on an individual basis by knowing and considering the individaul boy. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

It is unfortunate you feel that way EagleinKY. I think if you took a few minutes and reviewed my posts for anytime period or thread in the past, you will see otherwise. The vast majority of my posts are helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, cheerful and sometimes even downright cuddly. There are some consistent exceptions. When others have decided to attack me personally rather than the topic. When some posters habitually ignore common and known methods or policies of the BSA. When scouters choose to condemn the program but refuse to leave it. Or non-members rather than try to learn answers make them up and call them truths. Perhaps my enthusiasm isn't always palatable to everyone, but it is always in support of the program and always with the best interest of the scouts in mind, not what is best in my opinion or what makes my job easiest.

TwoCubDad, Sorry if they came off snide or condescending, they are not intended that way. I reply quickly because I am often pressed for time or because they are questions I have answered frequently and do not require a lot of research to answer correctly. I realize that sometimes my answers come off like a splash of cold water on a sleepy face. that part is intentional. Subtlety takes time and body language. This is a bulletin board, and being direct is the best use of everyone's time and Terry's bandwidth. While I will plead guilty to occasional saracasm, I never intend to be snide or condescending.

"Performing these big "production numbers" on a monthly basis would diminish their value Actually Twocubdad, in Cub Scouting we call those "production numbers" by another name... The Pack Meeting Program. They do no diminish the value of anything, they enhance the program, and they are a basic element of every pack meeting.

Applications come to the selection committee from the regional office who gather the names from a pool of elegible professionals. Which professionals are available is determined on a number of factors including council size, financial resources, performance evaluation of the professional, tenure and experience, interest of the professional to relocate to that area, Their carreer track, etc. Usually a council is given 3 to 5 applicants to choose from. If after reviewing applications and interviewing candidates the council selection committee feels that none are suitable, a second pool of candidates is offered. The BSA sets the minimum employment package that a Council can offer the candidate, but the final employment agreement is left for the council executive board to determine.

I too understand what EagleinKY is saying Twocub I still see it as being incorrect. Look at it as if you had 6 kids in your famoily and you say that reather then celebrate their birthdays as they come up you have decided to do one birthday party in June for all of them, regardless of when their birthday was. What kid wants that. They want to celebrate their birthday ON their birthday. They want and need immediate recognition. They fact that you want to do one big advancement ceremony does not change the fact that they want and need immediate recognition when the award is earned.

The post of Anthony Mako's article quoted by eagle54 does not take into consideration the New Scout Patrols and how they integrate into experienced patrols, or the process for patrol activities. He makes it sound as if "A troop is not divided up into patrols but made of patrols was a new concept developed by his JLT leader. In fact had Anthony or Eagle54 checked the Scoutmasters Handbook they would know that Baden- Powell in his first scout leaders handbook said "the patrol method isn't one way to run a troop...it is the ONLY way to run a troop." As well as "troops are not divided into patrol, Patrols gather to form a troop". These concepts have been a core of scout leader training for decades and are still found in todays manuals and training programs. Mako writes in 2000 as they were a thing of the past. His article has several personal opinions that suggest that the patrol method has been forgotten or no longer stressed by the BSA and that is not the case. Granted some troops do not use it effectively or at all, but Mako makes broad generalizations such as "Today, however, the troop has become recognized as the primary unit of Scouting. This comes from the fact that patrols are not chartered by the BSA, troops are". Well patrols have never been chartered by the BSA but that hasn't stopped many troops of various tenure from implementing and stressing the patrol method. I would interested to see what data let him to determine that it was the charter method that has effected the patrol system. Again much of what Mako wrote if fine. But all the good stuff is found in the current official resources of the BSA program. If Eagle54's intention was to print a how-to-guide, why not open the actual BSA handbooks and quote the current correct material? But I am still having trouble understanding Eagle54's intent. It is not the typos that trouble me, I confess to more than my fair share of typos. But he needs to use full sentences. "Patrol Leaders who remind their patrol members - what time to be ready to leave for outings; sell the campouts, summer camp. etc." I am sorry but I have no idea what he means by that, or the conclusion he is drawing from what he posted. I think I want to agree with him, but I'm not sure about what.

EagleinKY, If you mean it doesn't violate a policy, you are correct. But it does violate the spirit and goals of advancement. Why should some scouts get more recognition for the same accomplishment just because it occured at a time of your choosing? Earning Wolf if February is no greater or lesser accomplishment than earning it in December or March. How much self esteem was that young cugb filled with? How much enthusiasm and sense of accomplishment did he feel? Do what is right for the individual boy. That is how you will best deliver the promise of scouting.

"Units with advancement concerns do not need more unit rules, they need to use more leadership skills." Leadership skills develop through experience and responsibilities. Experience and responsibilities are developed through participation and teaching. OneHour, I was not referring to the leadership skills of the scouts! "We can teach and they can teach each other, but we can't force them to participate." This is were greater leadership ability o the part of the adult leaders is needed. You are right "you can't force them to participate". So why are you trying to? That is is really what your goal is when you create a general rule based on attendance. I am not any more likely to advance a scout who shows up but doesn't participate in the spirit of the activity as I am one who never shows up. The requirement isn't be present the requirement is "be active". The ability to be active comes from a variety of personal characteristics. Many of which can be developed through personal coaching from adults and youth leaders in the unit, but for that to happen you have to know each scout's abilities and characteristics. Talk with the scout and come to an agreement of the level of activity he is capable of and the actions he will commit to. One of the things that made scouting unique when it was first organized, and which is still evident in strong successful units, is Baden-Powell's philosophy that scouting is delivered one-boy-at-a-time. The more all-encompassing rules created by a unit, the further you distance yourself from that philosophy.

While I agree with the fact that that was qoted material I would have been more impressed had you quoted from the BSA resources since it is their program and not Anthony's. Although much of what he said is part of the Scoutmaster Handbook, Scout Handbook and Scoutmaster training materials, he has inserted some personal opinion that is not consistent with today's scouting. Eagle54, having reread your original post and this last one I have to ask you...What's your point?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Blanket policies such as this give leaders an ready excuse for not having to learn the needs and characteristics of the individual boys. All you need to do is turn to the artificial rules of scouting that have been created to make adults lives easier and say "no you can't". If being able to tell boys "no" is your purpose for scouting, then troop rule books are the manual to follow. If your goal is to help scouts grow while having fun, follow the programof the BSA, and learn to treat each scout as an individual. Units with advanacement concerns do not need more unit rules, they need to use more leadership skills.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Instant recognition is a fundamental element of the advancement program. So is the ability of each scout to advance at his or her own pace, as long as the rank in cubbing is achieved while the scout is still age or grade appropriate. There is no difference between a rank earned in February or one earned in May. They should be treated the same and celebrated the same. To not award a scout as soon as he has earned the award is wrong! To only present all the awards at one time with no other option is wrong! After the way the scout and his family was treated is it a surprise to anyone that he did not return for the other ceremony? EagleinKY, your program methods should not be evaluated by how many parents complain or not, but on the quality and quantity of the program delivered to each individual boy. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Dear Ha ha HA, This is a great learning opportunity for you and the SPL. I would recommend you check out two resources. The Senior Patrol Leader Handbook and the Scoutmaster of your troop. I know the Handbook covers the 4 styles of leadership and when to apply each. Your scoutmaster, I am hopeful is trained, and can help you to understand the role of leadership more clearly. I know you "told" him to go hiking, and then you "told on him" for not hiking, but you never mentioned whether a friend "asked" him to go hiking, or what happened in his patrol before he decided not to go hiking, or what he responded when you sat down with him and "asked" why he didn't want to join in. Forget about punishing other scouts. That is not what you are there for. What can you do to develop yourself as a leader to better handle, or better yet avoid, these kinds of hurdles in the future? How do you balance "keeping the group together" and "getting the job done"? That is the challenge of leadership, not looking for ways to punish other scouts.

That's not altogether true. There are some checks and balances. Commissioned scouters have the ability to begin processes that can withdraw charters or memberships for violations in policy areas that a unit refuses to correct such as safety, uniforming, advancement, membership, and finances. The charter organization has the ability to remove membership or change leadership at will as well as control youth membership. Adult leaders can voluntarily choose to follow the program and help to guide each other as they learn and grow in scouting. Many volunteers spend their time just trying to help others to be successful as scout leaders and offer guidance and mentoring. Councils and district offer dozens of different training programs to help leaders learn and be motivated to follow the program. An active commissioning team can be a valuable asset in evaluating and assisting the needs of units. If you mean that scouting relies primarily on the character of volunteers to keep their promise and do their best to follow the scouting program, then you are absolutely right. The most powerful tool there is for delivering a quality scouting program at the unit level is a conscious and determined effort to select and recruit quality adult leadership. If you are looking for scouters either volunteer or professional to crack the whip over every scouter's head to follow the program or else, forget it. It ain't gonna happen! That is not what scouting is here to do. Life is too short, that's not a job that a person should volunteer his time to do. There aren't enough professionals in scouting to crack that many whips. If your unit didn't take the time to choose the right adults to guide your children then you either make the changes needed or live the results of your choice. We each have a responsibility to keep the promise of scouting that is made to each scout when he joins, and the one made to the BSA to follow the program. Character counts and it begins with each of us.

Well Merlyn, I have given your last response a few hours to settle in and have come to this response. If the only tool of debate you can muster up is to repeat over and over "Liar, Liar" then there is little need for me to read more than one of your posts to know what the content of every post will be. So based on your gracious warning I have squelched your posts, since the value of their content is both predictable and pointless. (those being the two standards by which I squelch). On the bright side, you have found both an efficient (albeit limited) communication device and could make many posters participation here more enjoyable. I offer this for your consideration. Why not just have everyone who has a differing point of view from your own, end their post with: Merlyn says,"liar, liar". This would effectively communicate your end of the conversation without you actually having to go through the strain of either thinking or typing. In fact it would make it unnecessary for you to even visit the forum, or read our posts, yet everyone would know your opinion and the depth of your character. Think of the time it would allow! You could even go out and do something positive for your legacy. I wish you well. Bob White Merlyn says, "liar, liar".