Bob White

Lack of understanding and training in the BSA program is the problem.

Mike check out the troop Committee Guide book and especially talk to your Committee Chair about EVERYONE getting training for their positions. One thing you will discover is about voting members. Nothing in the BSA training says that committees operate by majority rules. The program says that the Committee chair hands out assignmemnt and thet athe comittee members report back at the committee meetings. Are ASMs voting members? No, but then neither is anyone else really.

Sure, lots of them. There is no BSA policy or recommendation that I am aware of against matches being carried by scouts. Lighters are another matter. I consider those as chemical fuels and that means they require adult supervision and controlled storage.

The scoutmaster makes it a portion of the Scoutmaster Conference. Keep in mind the mission is to help the scout make ethical decisions based on the Oath and Law. The SM and the scout discuss his personal goals in and out of scouting and how he plans to achieve them. They discus the responsibilities he has taken on in his patrol and troop, his school, his home, his community. What is important to us is his development as a person, not just his attendance at scout events. Who he is becoming, is far more important to us than merely how often he shows up. So let's measure what's important. If he has accepted a patrol or troop responsibility they will discuss what needs to be accomplished in the next 6 to 9 months to effectively do that job. He will ask the scout to think about what he will need to do and what he needs to be at for his to be trustworthy, helpful to his patrol/troop. Usually the scout sets a goal far above 50%. If the SM feels the scout hasn't made an ethical decision, he will discuss it with him. If he feels what the scout can give is not sufficient to be considered active he will counsel the scout to either make a stronger commitment or to pass on the responsibility until a time when he can actively serve. BUT, the important thing to remember is that it is the scout's decision, and that it is reached on an individual basis. It requires the SM to do their job... to know and understand the needs and characteristics of the individual scouts. The scout writes his goals in his handbbok. Never wait until the end of the term to evaluate. Evaluation as you learn in scout leader training is a continual process. As you see a trend to meet the goal you enthuse and recognize the scouts efforts. As you see trends that do not support the goal you cousel, train, and redirect. That's what the job of being an adult leader is really all about. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Scoutmom is correct, the Committee chair serves at the pleasure of the Charter organization Representative and the Institutional Head of the Charter Organization, NOT be the election of the committee. I am curious by what you mean by "to improve the quality of our Eagle Scouts, restoring the rank to the position of distinction it deserves." Could you be more specific?

I have now checked with District and Council professionals from 8 councils and none recieved any info from National regrading the uniform change. I talked with three National Scout Shops and they "heard" about it but none had anything in writing. Last week I sat with a local professional as he called the Cub Scout Division at National Headquarters. They had nothing in writing yet and knew of nothing that had gone out. But they did say that a brochure for fall recruitment was just produced and they were sending us a copy. It will have all the info in it. Since then I understand some of our local Cubmasters have received a postcard with some of the uniform info in it. Here is what we were told by the Cub Scout Division of the national office. The Tigers will now wear the blue Cub Uniform as of August 1st. There will be an orange neckerchief and pocket instant recognition bead thong. The orange T-shirts and sweatshirts will remain available for the adult partners and for the scouts as an activity uniform. The tan Boy Scout shirt can only be worn by the leaders and by Webelos Scouts...NOT by Tigers Wolves or Bears at any time. Hope this helps. Bob White

Your agenda is certainly one area where Roundtables can be impproved. if you take Round table training (or at least get a hold of the Roundtable Training Guide, you will find that the recommended agenda closely resembles a troop meeting agenda. This serves multiple purposes. It has portions designed to provide leaders "the will to do" and "the skill to do" good troop scouting programs, and that after all is the purpose of Roundtable. Another advantage is that it sets a good example for the participants to see a model meeting in action. A by-product of that is it teaches unit leaders the pace or feel of a good meeting. Pace has a lot to do with a meetings success as it considers the attention span of the participants and brings interest and excitement to the activity when done properly. By the way, one thing I failed to mention on my list of things that can improve Roundtable is Training. Have the RT Commissioner and the staff members been trained? Have they attended: NLE, SM Leader Specific, Wood Badge, Trainer Development/BSA 500, Roundtable Staff Development, Roundtable Commissioner Training, Boy Scout Roundtable Conference at Philmont? The easiest way to improve Roundtable is to develop the skills of those responsible for delivering Roundtable. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

As a trainer with limited time (due more to the participants time constraints then to my own) I can teach more craft and activity ideas by teaching the resources available such as the Cub Scout Song Book, How To Book, Pack Program Help, Ceremonies for Packs and Dens, Den Sparklers, and Boys' Life, then I could teach by actually doing the crafts during the training. That activity is better used in Roundtables and Pow Wows. If your wife was not shown the many resources where crafts, songs, skits and ceremonies can be found, as well as the thematic agendas for an entire year available in the Program Helps book then the trainer did her an injustice by not following the training syllabus.

Neil up talks about a scout being an active member. But There is no requirement for advancement that calls for the scout to be an active member. The requirement in question here specifically says to "actively serve". The associate membership he mentions is not available to youth members. It is a district/council membership category usually used for college students 18 years of age or older, who do not have the time to remain active in a unit, but wish to maintain their membership.

Lots of different ways. Presentations, Agendas, Staff assignments, Pizzaz, Recognitions, Promotions, Location, Room arrangement, Themes, Fellowship,

So are you surprised that each appellate situation is not exactly the same, considering the number of elements that can vary in each case? But the rules of advancement do not change. The scout must complete the requirements and the adults can't add to or take away from the requirements.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Differing from your points of view or different from your personal experience?

Have you read the related portion of the Guide to Safe Scouting? Do you feel that applies in your situation?

I sat on a national appeals board of review. The scout had already appealed to council and was turned down, The councils explanation was not well documented and did not address the the actual problem. I was contacted by the National Advancement Committee in writing through our local council scout executive, asking me to chair an appellate board on behalf of the national office. I hope that resolves any concerns you had. While you are welcome to your opinion, my experience does not support your belief.(This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Having chaired such a board I am familiar with the instructions I was given to proceed by. If the scout did not complete the requirements even though he understood the requirement, was capable of the requirement and had the needed resources to complete the requirement, then the requirement is not yet done and the scout would be given specific instructions on how to complete the requirements. The requirement is not to hold an office. The requirement is to "actively serve". If that service was hampered by an adult, for instance if he was not given proper instructions or training, or if he was not given the opportunity or resources to succeed, then a BORs decision to withold the advancement would be overturned. Appellate BORs only overturn the unit BOR if an adult or adults misuse or misapply the advancement policies and procedures of the BSA.

In my son's troop an SPL serves for 6 to 9 months. To be elegible he must be elected by a simple majority of voters.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

"My understanding is that if a Scout has held the position of responsibility, is rejected by the BOR and appeals to the National Council, the appeal will be upheld." That is not at all the case. An appeals board does not always find in favor of the scout. If the BOR and other involved adults did their job correctly then the appelate board will support the troop BOR. The BOR has the responsibility to see that the requirements were met in accordance with the BSA requirements. If the scout was required to "actively serve" and did not do so due to his own decisions and choices then the BOR was correct to withold the advancement. However, at the same time they are required to tell the scout in writing exactly which requirement was not met, and what specifically he can do to satisfy the requirement. At the moment he fulfills that requirement his advancement to that rank is completed. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Clinton turned his back on terrorism attacks against his own countrymen because he was afraid that military action would hurt his image and "legacy". Many Americans do not believe or find evidence that Bush lied to get us into a war. We believe that we were attacked and are defending ourselves and others from viscious terrorists. Terrorists who are greatly comforted by Americans who choose this time to attack their elected government with greater furvor than they defend it against its enemies. And that is no lie.

Politics forces you to roll in the mud with a lot of pigs. It is impossible to never get muddy, regardless of in which direction you are politically bent. For Firstpusk to try and measure "most dishonest" is a losing venture. For him to determine who has been lied to is psychic at best. I doubt he was privy to any of the actual conversations or security reports, from our own country and others that led to a military response, to make a valid deterrmination. While I believe him to be emotionally sincere, emotions rarely represent truth. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

It is very frustrating as a trainer to have to tell Den Leaders in an April course, "of course come September when you become a WL, you are no longer trained and have to take WL training which is 75% a repeat of this course." What it is, is very poor scheduling on the District/councils part. Why after they have been den leaders for two years and are moving to Webelos in 30-days would you invite them to get trained for the job they are leaving? This is not the training contiuums fault, this is poor local administration of it. Consider this. NLE and Den leader training and Cubmaster training is done in the late summer/early fall for Cub Leaders entering a new den level or position of responsibility. It is then done in late spring for people who will be starting new spositions in the fall. In the winter and early spring do the pack committee training and train Pack Trainers. On-line Roundtables have existed for years now in councils where overwhelming geographic size of the District makes regular meetings almost impossible. You do not need national BSA to tell you you can do it. This is a local council decision. The contiuum works because the den structure and activities in Tigers is far different from the other ranks. Some basic info is repaeted a year later in Wolf/Bear beacuse not all the participants were Tiger leaders and even if they were it has been a year since they learned it (if they even attended trainng), and a few minutes for refresher won't hurt them. Wolf/bear training is good for two program years. before they return for Webelos Training. Some basic info is reviewed because not all particiapants attended their training before as they should have, or they are new, or it has been two years since they learned it and a few minutes of refresher won't hurt them. Webelos training is separate because it has a very different advancement, uniforming and den structure as well as a different outdoor program. Cubmaster and Committee are separate for a very good reason, the jobs are different. One more thing. The uniform game can be altered between Wolf/Bear and Webelos sessions. Nothing says you can't focus on the Webelos awards for the Webelos course and the Wolf/Bear awards for the Wolf/Bear leaders. This is one of those situations where the abilities of the trainer makes a difference. I hope this helps to explain some of the areas that have been brought up so far.

A few questions and an observation for our last poster. Do you really feel that is an appropriate name for this type of forum? What exactly is your scouting experience that would lead you to such an interesting conclusion? Isn't it the responsibility of scouting to give the scouts the training and experience they need to be able to learn to lead as they participate? Living near St. Louis myself, I was surprised to see the spelling that you chose in your profile. I don't know of anyone or anything in St. Louis that spells out Saint the way you did. Not even the Greater St. Louis Area Council of the BSA.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Bush is the most dishonest man we have had as President. Firstpusk, just saying it doesn't make it so. "I am going to say this again: I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Miss Lewinsky." Bill Clinton TV Interview January 26, 1998 "It depends on what the meaning of the word "is" is. If the--if he--if "is" means is and never has been, that is not that is one thing. If it means there is none, that was a completely true statement." Bill Clinton, Grand jury testimony, August 17, 1998 "I tried to walk a line between acting lawfully and testifying falsely, but I now realize that I did not fully accomplish that goal." - Bill Clinton

Thats not quite right Eagle54. First you have to accept that all councils and districts are not created the same, but the do have some common elements. Size, needs, and available manpower shape the various service levels. In general units are composed of: Youth members Adult Leaders Committe Chair and Committee A Charter Organization Representative and a Charter Organization with an Institutional Head The District is made of; Scouting professional(s)(the type and number depending on size and strength of the district/council) District Chair Overseeing District sub-committees(usually, or at least, including: Activities, Advancement, Finanance, Membership, Training), and the District Committee made of Chareter Organization Representatives and elected District members-at-large District Commissioner with Assistant District Commissioners, Unit Commissioners, Roundtable Commissioners, and Roundtable Staff Commissioners. The Council Committee Is chaired by the Council President. His/her committee consists of Charter Organization representatives, Counil members-at-large, and subcommittees for all the same things found on the district level. The District Sub committees are also part of the council committee for that topic. The council often has other committees such as marketing, camping, fascilities, etc.. The Council Chair is also a part of the Council Executive Committee that includes the Council Scout Executive, Treasurer, Council Commissioner, and other selected volunteers. The Council Commissioner has Assistant Council Commissioners for various tasks and assignments and meets with the District Commissioners within the council. The Scout Executive heads the professional staf whose size and titles depend on the size and needs of the Council.

Checks and balances Paul. We have have a legal system and process to defend ourselves against that sort of thing, as I understand it for a few who may have been affected in the way you say that process is already in motion. That is what is designed to do is it not? I know a few hundred people (which is about all any of us know) adn none of them have nmade any such claim, or have mention any of the hundreds they know making such claim. I have faith in the ability of our sytem to right those wrongs in nearly every instences. If you are looking for perfection then you have chosen the wrong planet to live on.

Here are where the dilemmas arise. Many participants come with no positive leadership experience, while a few come with loads. Yet each wants the course to fit their specific needs. Sorry, that is not possible. Rather than say This is all stuff I learned in other leadership training, how about realizing, Hey this is stuff I understand, the BSA uses skills and procedures I am familiar with, the job won't be that hard to do. Next some come away disappointed because the trainer didn't answer all their questions, so what is the solution? Get rid of the trainer and put everything on line. Sorry I don't see how that solves the problem. The BSA has started to put some training on line, and more is being developed. But just as the scouting program cannot be delivered to scouts via the Internet, neither can all leadership training. There are to many variables that need to be considered. You need a live person at some point. Plus, here are some other things to consider. We (the training team and district and council volunteers) need to know you, and know who you are, and you need to know us. That will not happen on-line. Not everyone has a computer. Not everyone knows how to use their computer. Not everyone is on-line. Live training will always be needed. On-line training is perfect when "Telling" information. But it is not good for motivating, answering specific needs or questions, or for flexibility. I expect NLE will become available on line. But if you are going to be a program leader in a hands-on program then you need to get out in the world and attend Leader Specific Training. INSIST that you training follow the program syllabus. These are not top secret documents. If you are dissatisfied after attending a course as to be able to see the syllabus. The only one that is not available will be the Wood Badge but you will come away with much of it in your own version from the course. Remeber also that the Leader Specific courses are "BASIC" training. Thay are not designed to be the first and only trainng you receive. They are the 'first step' to understanding the education and development methods of the various BSA programs.