Bob White

In one of the rare moments on this forum I will disagree with Eamonn. We pay local scouting professionals to increase money, manpower and membership (not necessarily in that order) during the day while we go about our regular lives. I have no problem with a DE fulfilling that responsibility to his/her job, while I am at mine. I raise money to pay him to do that among other things. I also have no problems with him or her sharing the promise of adventure made by the BSA. Those same things he said to those school kids can be found in the first few pages of every Boy Scout handbook. Whether the DE told them about those activities in his talk, or if they read them in the handbook, those adventures are a part of the promise of scouting. If those promises are not being kept in the meetings and activities of the troop then it is not the DE or the handbook that has the boys down. It is the troop leaders' responsibility to deliver on the promise of scouting. If a troop is not utilizing the adventure that is inside every scout age boy then they have no one to blame but themselves. The very first 10 minutes of scoutmaster training is spent reading that promise of adventure and telling the Scoutmasters and assistants that it is their responsibility as leaders to keep the promise that the BSA has made. Do not beat the messenger if you have failed to understand the message, or failed to deliver on the promise you chose to accept.

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=61233&p=2#id_63815

boleta, The behavior expectations for a scout are thoroughly covered in the Scout Law. The disciplinary process is spelled out in the Guide to Safe Scouting. Take a look at both and tell me what you think they lack. bob White

Yes Dan, the Sm responsibility during the troop meeting, as well as before and after the troop meeting, is covered quite accurately and sufficiently in the current training course. The only time the adults function as a patrol is during preparation for, and during, the Introduction to Outdoor Skills course. Not only to model patrol operation but because it is the most efficient way to administer the training (when the syllabus is followed).

The title of the thread is misleading, because you are not really seeking a alternative but how to fulfill the requirement using the signs portion. As pointed out you can use other senses, hear a birds song, touch a deer track, smell a skunk, feel a porcupine quill (preferable one no longer on the porcupine), Hear a squirrel overhead. So it is possible to complete the requirement as stated. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

SMT376RichmondKY has private messaged me an apology which I gratefully accept. His greeting did not mean what it appeared to and he saw how it could easily have been interpreted that way based on how the letter read. Now I have to find out why my 16 year-old knew another phrase to attach to it...kids.... While I can see a council having the option to placce age criteria as a way to control camp program, just as national has the authority to set criteria for their camps, the council should not be putting artificial controls on MB and Troop activities done outside of the council/district program. If you read the article that SMT376RichmondKY refers to on the national site, nowhere does it specifically restrict the activities he assumed it covered in his original post. Just to clarify, while there are ability and training requirements for activities often associated with the term "high adventure". You must read the G2SS and the advancement requirements themselves to know if that conditin really exists. Too many people are operating scouting based on hearsay and folklore. The scouting program isn't what you think it is, it's what the BSA says it is. SMT376RichmondKY, I hope this new info helps the troop to fully experience the fun and adventure of scouting. I hope you will make an effort to invite back those scouts that left and get them involved in the adventures they have been looking for. Best of luck, Bob White

Would you send a scout on a hike with no map and no destination, and then tell him if he got where you needed him to be after he stopped walking? How can expect him to fullfill a requirement like "actively serve, if he doesn't have direction and a destination? Of course it is not adding to the requirement. You and the scout determine the conditions together.

I thought I made it clear they were covered?

Because uniforming as well as suporting the other methods of unit scouting is the responsibility of the Chartered Organization. If units fulfill their responsibility and select quality leaders they should be willing to follow the program and wear the uniform. Why should the district/council have to tell them to get dressed? They are adults not youth. I guess they are just expected to be able to dress themselves properly. Wood Badge serves volunteers in other areas of scouting then direct unit service. Rather than have some in uniform, some out and some in none, the Council which hosts the activity sets the dress code... the official uniform of your program. If the CO wants to require a full uniform they can. Many do, many do not.

I think you represented my point just fine Eamonn. The young man who wrote the original post jumped right from "I told him what to do and he didn't do it so now how do I punish him". Thats is not the leadership ability that scouting is trying to develop. The posters problem is not the scouts ability to follow but the the leadership skills that could make the adult and youth leaders more effective. The proof? When he told us of going to the scoutmaster, all he shared was his concern for being obeyed. He made no mention of concern for the scout.

The recommendation of the BSA as far as how much money is carried over is... that the money be spend this year on the scouts who earned it , except for a small amount in reserve expenses incurred before the next major fund raiser. The amount will vary depending on the size and need of the unit, as well as depending on fiscal calendar of the unit. If you follow the guidelines of the program you planned your program first and only raised enough money to provide the program you planned. The goal of scouting is not to see which unit can raise the most money or amasse the largest bank account. Plan a quality year of scouting, raise the money needed to deliver it. Start over with the next annual plan. I hope this answers your question.

My Point exactly Eamonn, they are not following the program, but simply bringing the bad habits from one to the other. The solution is for the leadership of the individual crews to brake tradition and follow the actual program. The program ain't broke, it's just not being used in all units.

To think that a sheath knife is safer because you do not have accidents that are associated with blades folding up on you, assumes that their are no accidents related to the fact that the blade is fixed in an open position. All knives are dangerous, some in different ways than others. The BSA's recommendation away from sheath knives is no doubt based on their decades of experience with youth and knives. For camping a fixed blade sheath knife is rarely the proper tool. Like our fires, we tend to like blades larger than needed to do the job required of them. Let's teach good decision making.

The only rule that I know of in the last 3 decades was that the scout had until his 18th birthday to complete his merit badge. The Scout can complete under the old requirements or under the new, but not using a mix of both.

Sorry boleta but I read through you "by-laws" and it only supports what my experience has shown me...unit by-laws have very little value in delivering a scouting program. Easily a third of the content is not rule or law, as the title suggests. As an example to say that 'parents should try to attend all courts of honor' is hardly a rule. Everything else falls into one of two categories, 1.already covered by the BSA program, (example two deep leadership), or 2. in direct opposition to the BSA program, elected ASPL and scoutmaster selecting troop positions). You could have saved a lot of time (and trees) with a one page welcome to new parents, and tips on how to have a great scouting experience, and a statement that the troop will follow the program methods and policies of the BSA.

I should just butt out, Good leaders don't butt out. They evaluate and choose to: counsel, guide, train, reinforce, recognize, or resolve. But they should never butt out.

I like that acco

Q. Who has the authority to approve the scoutmaster? A. The Charter Organization representative or Institution Head, and the Committee Chair. The SM has responsibilities, but as long as you can be chosen and/or removed by someone else, you are not "in charge". Bosses are for businesses. Scouting requires servant/leaders.

F/U??? not familiar with that, perhaps you will explain. I would hope that it is not what my son who read the post thinks it is. That would be very disappointing coming from a Scoutmaster of all people. If you read the merit badge requirements for all the ones you named you will see there are no age limits. The Council may very well have denied the activities based on other elements and age problem was only assumed. perhaps the volunteers on the activity and summer camp committees do not realize they are in error and no one has shared the correct rules with them. you would be amazed by the number of scouters operating by rumor and folklore. As far as your tour permit, where does it ask the age of the participants? Where in the G2SS does it restrict Boy Scouts in those activities by age. Which Merit badge book do you see those age restrictions in? No, it is not a problem with the BSA program. What training your leaders went to and which ones they remeber or understood may be the bigger problems. I think you greeting to me establishes your credentials in scouting. Bob White

Dan, The courses you based your suggestions on have not existed for over two years. With the exception of covering why uniforms are mandatory at at Wood Badge everything you mention is a part of the Scoutmaster/Assistant Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training syllabus, and in the Scoutmaster handbook, as well as at other leader development courses and youth handbooks. Why are full uniforms required for Wood Badge? Why are tuxedos required at black tie formal dinners? Because they are. That is what the hosts have determined to be the proper attire for the activity.

Here again is another time when the focus needs to be on the purpose of what we do than on the rules we create. I offer this shift in outlook. look at the individual scout. What has he learned or not learned yet? What challenge is he ready to advance to? What situation will best help him to develop his decision making abilities. Please put aside the search for blanket rules and learn about the needs and characteristics of the individual boy. Base you decision on what serves each scout the best as he develops. It takes a little more effort on the part of adults and will reap far more growth in ability of each scout.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Hi dan, What's it like to want? "Not altogether true" was a veiled attempt to convey "No Dan, you are wrong." but perhaps that was to subtle. You want to hear that being the Scoutmaster puts you "in charge" of the troop. No Dan, you are wrong.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I don't think it does zipmedic. Could you supply a page number. In fact on page 7 of the Troop Committee Guidebook it says that the Charter Organization Representative selects the CC. and there are more references that pertain to this as well. I believe you are basing your opinion on rumor and folklore rather than on the resources of the BSA. In nearly 25 years as a trainer, and even more years as a unit leader, I have never seen any resource or training syllabus that says anything other than there CC is selected by the COR and IH. The only determination of whether a scout has achieved Eagle is by the requirements of the BSA. If he meets the requirements and has the required approvals then he is an Eagle Scout. As an ASM it is your responsibility to use the methods of scouting to help achieve the mission of scouting within the life of each scout. It is not your responsibility to determine the quality control of the Eagle rank. Until your knowledge of scouting corresponds to the BSA program there is little you can do to 'straighten out' the CC, any committee members or any one else in the program. Training is your solution.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Boleta some points to consider. "It is wonderful when the SM is the ideal adult leader, but unfortunately, he is just an adult volunteer like all the rest of us." That's right we are all volunteers and all pretty much the same. There isn't anything one of us can do that another cannot learn to do. "He makes mistakes, is unclear with the scout and occasionally gives mixed messages as to the demands of the scout." Which goes back to the unit's responsibility to choose their leaders wisely. Plus there is nothing wrong with making a mistake, until you choose to make the same one over and over again. "I go back to my previous post, the bylaws should spell out the requirement to be active. If the SM does not follow the bylaw, then there is a basis for a review to the BOR, the troop committee or beyond. If the bylaw is incorrect (by demanding more than is required) then district and council advancement advisors can intervene." Why not just follow the scouting program to begin with, rather than waiting for the district or council to catch someone doing it wrong and have to intervene? What if no one complains because they don't know that an appeal process exists? How long should a unit go altering the program and how many boys should it be allowed to discourage or chase away? Why can't the BSA program simply be followed to begin with? You have been offered a method that accomplishes the mission, uses the methods, respects each scouts individual characteristics, and enhances the scoutmasters understanding of each scout. Other than the fact that it requires an adult leader to lead, what do you see as the negatives compared to selecting a random number, and it is a random number. Unless of course you can show a consistant measuarable difference in the quality of a scout with 51% attendance as compared to 49% attendance.

What(or who) gave them the idea that they can't shoot rifles, shotguns, climb, rappel, or do white water activities. What have they had the opportunity to do? Programs fault??? Depends on which program you are referring to, the troop's or the BSA's? You will not find the fault to be the BSA's. You have a great opportunity here to bring those boys back, and to grow the troop even larger. I recommend the leaders and committee take the BSA training courses and get the troop activities back on track. This could be a very exciting change for everyone. Good Luck, Bob White