Bob White

The army is getting rid of their BDU's and wearing trousers??? What no zip-off pant legs in the new field tested design??? Oh I can't wait to see the reaction to this.

Ron, The answer is the same though the situation may seem complex. As long as the person signing the card is registered and approved there is no problem. I would recommend that you simply gather the needed forms and share them with both and suggest that whomever is qualified to counsel Horsemanship must register in order for the advancement to be accepted by the BSA. Offer it it as an assistance to the scout, not as a corrective measure to the adults. There is a counselor orientation instruction sheet from the BSA that you can get from your local council office, or private message me and I will send you one. BW

I am sure that if your son decides to attain the Eagle rank he will find within himself the characteristics and strengths need to reach his goal. But millions of fine young men have benefited and grown through scouting without choosing to earn all the ranks. I hope you will continue to support your sons strengths and celebrate whichever positive paths they lead him on. He does not have to fit anyones mold other than the one he creates for himself by doing his best to live by the Oath and Law.

The advancement policies specifically allow any registered and approved counselor to counsel any scout in that merit badge INCLUDING their own children. The BSA has no problem with it, neither should the unit.

Has the Scoutmaster shared with you or your son where the "assertiveness" requirement is in the handbook? If your report is accurate then the SM has added to the requirements for advancement, something he has no authority to do. His refusal to hold the SM conference is grounds for an appeal, and while it would be unfortunate to risk further damaging your relationship with the SM, he needs to understand that unless he can show a specific requirement from the handbook that has not been met he will either need to schedule the Board of review or expect the appeal process to be undertaken. I would ask for a meeting on neutral territory and other than a regular scout night to discuss the situation. Sorry this is happening to your son. Good Luck BW

Ron, Why not just take the appropriate paperwork (Adult Application and Merit Badge Counselor Application) to the COR and explain that it will be necessary for her to be properly registered for her signature to count on the merit badge? She probably just doesn't know.

"respecting someones right to have their own convictions is not the same as respecting the customs and religions of others." Isn't it? Isn't one's customs and religions the outward expression of those spiritual convictions? Let's not bring sucking toilet water into the conversation unless you know of a religion that uses such an action to worship God. Let's be fair and reasonable please. If a peron wishes to worship Buddah and you do not agree with his choice, cqn you live without insulting or degrading him for that choice? Can you respect that his God may not be the same as yours but it is his culture and his choice? Can you accept diagree with him without being disrespectful of him. If so you have met your obligation to the Scout Law.

You seem to be projecting a lot of your opinion or the opinions of others into the philosophy of the BSA, as if it was the programs point of view rather than that of others. There is an easy litmus test as to what falls within the ideals of the BSA program and what doesn't. The BSA requires two things of its members in relationship to faith. 1." On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God" 2. "A Scout is Reverent toward God" If a scout meets these two requirements then whatever name he calls God by is irrelevant, how he gives service and reverence is of little concern as long as he does it. Can an atheist do duty to God? How when he rejects the existence of God. Can an atheist worship God? How? Can someone who believes in the aspirations of the human race give service to that belief? Probably. Can he worship that belief? How? Can a person who worships nature (a Wicken) give service to what they believe is God? The BSA feels that that case has been proved. I met a scouter who practices Confucianism. He has suddenly realized that it does not meet the religious standards of the BSA. It does not recognize the a God. It sees Confucius as a very wise man and he endeavors to follow his philosophies, but he does not perform duty to Confucius. He wants to know who he can talk to to change this. His only real choice is to talk to God. I personally do not agree with atheist's lack of faith. But I do respect their right to be able to choose that path. They need to respect the BSA's right to choose a different path for itself and its members.

Rooster, The version of the Law that you say you supported charged you to respect others religious customs did it not? Isn't that "how they worship"? Can you not respect their choice in custom and ceremony without agreeing with it? Isn't allowing them to practice their religion without interference or insult a way to show respect? Nothing in the Law says you need to agree with their tenets, just to allow them their choice of worship.

Certainly you can counsel the scout, I would definitely make available opportunities for him to gain the information or activities that he was denied by the counselor. BUT, you CANNOT refuse a signed merit badge from a registered and approved counselor, and you CANNOT review a merit badge advancement. The policies governing that are clear and specific. The responsibility to see that the requirements were met rests totally with the counselor according the policies of the BSA regardless of anyones personal opinion. Summer camp is no exception.

The appropriate time for the unit leader to counsel is prior to the time the scout meets with the merit badge counselor. The appropriate person for the unit leader to counsel is the merit badge counselor.

Which Committee? If you are refering to the Council, they do not have any authority in this matter as far as keeping the scout in the unit or not. That is a unit level decision. The troop committee on the other hand does have a say.The Guide to Safe scouting requires the scout and his parents to meet with the troop committee to determine a plan of action if the scout is to remain in the unit.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

No he doesn't Hunt. Read the card again. The Scoutmaster signs before, and a leader signs after on the Scout's copy as a receipt. Thats all it is... a receipt. Once the MB counselor signs the badge is done. Read the advancement rules also, While at summer camp a staff member under 18 can assist the counselor, but a registered, approved, counselor must test each scout individually in order for the Scout to pass. Real world is.. your council must still follow the national policies, even if it is summer camp. The more you know of the rules the better prepared you can be to help guide your local council back in line with the national policies.

Doesn't the Junior leader training kit have some suggestions? As I recall it recommends a campout or just a one day activity. Don't worry about this being the first time. That is exactly what that course is designed for. Try it once. Just follow the agenda in the kit, gather the props, get a tv/vcr, order some pizzas for lunch, and give it a whirl. It'll be fun, really. BW

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

SR540beaver, I invite you to revisit Hunt's post. If indeed he was thinking aboout summer camp it would be impossible to deduce that from his post. He makes no mention of such a senario as you suggest. Summer camp is no different in that the scout must first come to the scoutmaster and get a blue card. The fact that the camp doesn't make use of it does not change the procedure outlined in the Scout Handbook, Scoutmaster handbook, Merit Badge Counselor Orientation guide, and Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual. The troop leaders and the council/district are still responsible for seeing that counselors are qualified and capable. At Camp the unit leaders should be visiting the sessions to make sure that the work is done according to the requirements. If there is a problem you need to communicate that to the Camp director and changes need to be made. Read the advancement manual. it explains that although camp has its challenges that the rules of advancement and the expectations of the counselor do not change.

Oh for heaven's sake, don't tell me those pesky black helicopters are circling again? First we are not PC because we don't allow atheists and now we are because we ask scouts to be respectfull of people and their choice of worship. Face it folks the BSA is not left or right. It hovers gently in the middle and floats a little each way. It always has. It's fine to discuss what the program is and how to best deliver it to our youth but these talks of conspiracies, infiltrations and secret alliances, etc... are just silly.

Hunt, You are making the same error as boleta, The Scoutmaster must sign the blue card BEFORE the scout meets with the counselor, and the counselor signs AFTER the merit badge is earned. A better conversation would be: Jimmy: Hi Mr. Scoutmaster I have decided to work on my Mammal Study merit badge. May I have a blue card and the contact information on a counselor. SM: Sure jimmy, what got you interested in Mammal studies? Jimmy: We have been doing some work in biology class and a friend of mine mentioned that he had the merit badge. It sounded interesting so I wanted to see about earning it. SM: Thats great Jimmy, do you have the book yet? Jimmy: Not yet, is there one in the troop library? SM: Better check with Tommy on that he's the Librarian. Here is a counselor that I'm sure will do a good job, it fact this might even be your teacher, I know she's at your school. Let me write her name and phone number on the card. Don't forget you need to take a buddy with you to every session. I'm anxious to hear how it goes, let me know once you have your first meeting okay? Jimmy: OK, Thanks. Tell me again what I do with the blue card. SM: It goes to every merit badge session with you until you finish the work. Your counselor will keep a portion for her records and you bring the rest to me or the advancement chair, we will sign your section as a receipt and give it to you, and we keep the last section for the troop records. Good Luck Jimmy. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Boleta, and insist you should. The problem is your are holding the wrong person responsible. It is not the scout's job to see to it that the counselor does the job correctly. That happy task belongs to the troop and the district/council. It is the District /council advancement committees who ultimately approved the counselor, but it was the scoutmaster who knowingly sent the boy to that specific counselor. But the only one you have chosen to penalize is the boy. If the council did not select and train a good counselor, shame on them. They deserve your wrath. Forget about "this should be discussed by the troop committee" ...take action. Contact the Council advancement committee tell them to do a better job, wipe the counselors name off your list. Call the counselor, find out if he follow the requirements, scold them if they didn't. Tell them they have a responsibility to do the job correctly, they owe that to the scouts they counsel. But the scout did what he was told. He saw the person he was told to see, he did the work he was given to do. He brought back a signed blue from an approved, registered, counselor. The rules are clear. 1. You cannot review a merit badge. 2. Once the card is signed by an approved counselor the badge is earned. 3. The responsibility for merit badges rests solely with the merit badge counselor (article X, clause 13 of the Advancement by-laws) 4. The second unit leader signature on a blue card does not approve the merit badge, t was done by the counselor, it only signs the receipt for the paperwork for the scout's record. As you pointed out my explanation of the rules was "absolutely correct" (your own words), the problem as you accurately pointed out is that this isn't stopping your unit leaders from what they are doing. And that is a real shame. If the scout had the same resources in front of him that you have he would know that the unit is punishing him for mistakes made by adults, including his own unit leaders. Fortunately for you, he doesn't know that you have chosen to this to him rather than address the real problem with the errant adults. EagleInKY, I do not know what a perfect world would be on earth and doubt that it can be obtain in this mortal coil. So lets just do the best we can. If we know the problem is with the adult counselors let's try to fix that problem rather than create a new one by changing the rules on the scout who only did as he was was told by his troop leaders and merit badge counselors. No matter how little the staff is paid the scout is paid less. Let's not use such a meaningless measure as an excuse to ingnore the real problem.

I think the religious environment in scouting today has changed very little over the years. It is a mixed bag of beliefs and degrees of faith based largely on what the scout's home life has taught and supported. Scouts today are still developing their understanding of faith and still have a difficult time expressing their faith in front of their peers. I am not sure what would lead anyone to believe that the most important part of a Scout's reverence is is in his acceptance of others beliefs. Certainly that is one element however let's look at what the handook actual says of this point in the Law. "A Scout is reverent; he is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties and respects the convictions and beliefs of others in matters of custom and religion." It would seem to me that the main thrust is that the scout be reverent toward God. Reverence means to honor, respect and to be worshipful. Certainly one form which that can take is to respect others. And in the following sentence in explaining the law the BSA calls on the scout to to respect others in their religious customs. That does not mean that you cannot be strong in your own convictions and belief. It would seem to me, that to want to punish a scout for his religious convictions is in itself a violation of the characteristics required of us in the Law.

Finish reading it boleta, it says the merit badge is earned once the counselor signs it, and that there is no review process on a merit badge. You cannot just pick part of the policy to follow you must folow the entire section. You do not "submit" a merit badge the merit badge is earned when the counselor says it is, you record it. What you "think" is irrelevant to the rules of the BSA advancement program. The policies are what the BSA says they are not what you think they should be. If you are sure that the counselor doesn't follow the program correctly them the Scoutmaster should offer the scout another counselor when he gives him the signed blue card, and then inform the council of the problem so that the counselor can be removed. But you cannot send a scout to a specific counselor and then disregard the merit badge because he went to him/her.

That was an endorsement of anyone doing the labor, as long as the project is planned, developed and lead by hops.

Boleta, First I understand your feeling but you must realize that you are punishing the scout for the counselors error. It is the Scoutmasters responsibility to approve the counselor BEFORE the scout begins to work on the merit badge. That includes summer camp. If you don't feel that the counselors are qualified then do something about it other than violating the advancement policies. Create change in the camp or do not give the boys blue cards for merit badges you see are not being done properly. But the fact is that the SM or other unit leaders do not approve merit badges AFTER the counselor has signed off. At that point the badge is earned. PERIOD. There are no take backs. The second signature does not approve the badge, or accept the badge, it merely gives the scout a receipt that the record was turned over to the troop. That is all it does. You need to read the policies for merit badges, you are not understanding the procedures or their purpose. "(I hear the National Jambo MB Midway can be like this)" Well gee, why have rules and procedures at all? Why not just base all our actions and opinions on rumors and second hand information. Looking into the BSA resources isn't nearly as fun. EagleInKY, Your beef is with the council summer camp program. It is not the scout's fault. Either get the root of the problem fixed, or do not give the scout a blue card. Because once a registered, approved counselor signs it, it is a done deal. That is real world in the BSA. You make not like that, but you have no authority to do anything other than accept the advancement and complain to council about the counselor. The Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual is pretty much required reading for this conversation. There are a lot of opinions being presented here that have no relationship to the policies and programs of the BSA.

You're right Fscouter. Although some exceptions probably exist this type of CO seldom works. In addition most never properly file as a legitimate organization which creates some real legal problems. It makes the Committee, and especially the registered IH and COR, personally responsible in cases of litigation against the troop or orginization. The funds raised by such a group would be taxable, and who is personally responsible for those taxes? The registered members of the committee could all be held accountable for taxes and fines. Scout units were never intended to be owned by individuals hence the charter system and the conditions setforth by the congressional charter.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I have noticed a trend toward candidates only using their troop members as labor resources, and nothing requires you to do that. The Eagle project is not about who does the work, but about how you the candidate gives leadership to whatever the project is. You are free to use community volunteers, professionals, youth, adults, it doesn't matter as long as you are the one planning, developing and leading the project.