Bob White

It is obvious NJ that you have done vast research into the history of the BSA and its relationship into the changing social values of our history. Please share a list wih us of all the other youth organizations between 1911 and 1950 that you found invited and accepted minority races in addition to the BSA.

"HOW does registering with BSA twice protect the boys more?" You don't even know if that is happening or not. Why are you concerned about something that: A) Doesn't affect your ability to deliver the program. B) May not be happening. C) Has no negative consequences to anyone. "If background checks have, in fact, already been done for all the unit Scouters, how are the scouts protected more by having the unit Scouters register again a second time?" The better question is, how can it hurt. The worst that can happen is nothing new is discovered. The best that can happen is that information not previously on their record the first go around is now discovered and that person can be removed from direct youth contact in the program. So where would it be detrimental to the scout? "How does having an additional registration form enhance recordkeeping?" There is no such thing as a paperless office, even where there are computers. Most councils keep a hard file of registrations separated by unit ID and by membership classificiation. So a hard file of MB Counselors in alpha order with their adult application and current merit badge applications are kept in most council offices. "I would prefer a reason that's a little better filled out than "because BSA says so."....... But yes, we will all dutifully file the forms, even if we don't get any explanations." You pretty much answered that one yourself. Why do most rules exist? To please the needs of the people responsible for maintaining order in a society. Why Ten Commandments and not nine? Cuz them's the rules. If you choose to be a part of that society then you accept their rules. BSA says ALL MB counselors need to have a a separate registration (period). Them's the rules. Hope this helps, Bob White

You are right you need to go back and read the posts more carefully.

That is the technically correct answer.

Roster, You wrote, "Ive seen parts of the program done very well, and others somewhat neglected." I agree, but I based my responses to your posts on the premise which you established "If we did our jobs right..." So now my question is, if we did our jobs right why would any parts of the program be neglected?

When the police and fire departments wanted to encourage young people to follow in their missions and they voluntarily chose to adopt the Scouting program as their youth outreach program, I think they did it with eyes wide open and an understanding of the values of the scouting program, especially since many had been scouts themselves. And I think the thought that the community you live in and that serves you and deserves to be served by you, is based on values that were shared with the human race by its creator, makes you feel left out and bitter.

Hi BP and congrats on the success of your local Venturing Crews. I am sure others are experiencing the same success. Unfortunately those strong healthy independent crews you have begun are few and far between. It seems to be the rule rather than the exception that crews have been put together hastily with far too much reliance on dual registering Boy Scouts to create the mirage of a growing membership. I think that is what is frustrating many of us. It is not that we want to see Venturing fail but that we want to see it have genuine success. You have proved by your own experience that is possible to achieve. Unfortunately our community has yet to have that experience.

Uncle, Who loves ya baby? The only plaace I disagreed with you (and I am right about this by the way ) is when you wrote "The passage in the G2SS that you referred to is for unit camp outings." That is not accurate, and here is an example to prove it. Does this same rule not apply to Den meetings? Sure it does. How about an OA event? Yep. Neither of those are unit camp outings and yet the same policy is in force. Nothing in the G2SS restricts this practice to unit camp outings only. We do agree on the Council camp's authority and ability to determine health regulations for those in attendance. Your Buddy, Bob White

Hi Eamonn, The advancement procedures of the BSA allow for units to recruit and train merit badge counselors for the District. The District or Council advancement committees (depending on how your council choices to administrate it) have the responsibility to approve or deny the application. As you point out the counselor has the ability to choose to serve the entire council or just select scouts, and actually that is an unnecessary box to check since the counselor is a volunteer that can decline or accept to work with anyone they wish at anytime. So while the counselor does not actually have a unit affiliation the units of a District share in the ability to recruit counselors for the scout of the specific unit or the District in general.

It was not, and is not, their Explorer program. It was, and is, their Explorer post. The Program belonged in the past to the BSA, it now belongs to Learning For Life. Was it right for a private organization (the BSA) to be able to determine its own membership qualifications? According to the Constitution of the United States, the elected officials that made the laws, and to the United States Supreme Court, YES. But their opinion probably doesn't carry much weight with you does it? After all to accept the ruling of the Supreme Court you would have to acknowledge them as a greater authority than yourself, and that appears to be the core of your difficulty. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

No Hunt, it's that the BSA wants all adults with direct contact to youth to be be registered ad trained. This has always been the case, including merit badge counselors. Now that background checks are being done the BSA wants to make sure it is doing everything it can to protect its youth membership. Why can't you just say that "in order to be a merit badge counselor you are required to register as such with the BSA. There is no charge just read and complete these two forms." I do not understand your hesitation, or the need to go into further specifics with a counselor candidate or any other volunteer. They either want to do this or they don't. If they don't that's fine say thank you and move along.

"But that wasn't the issue that I was attempting to highlight. Nor do I suspect it was scoutldr's intent." I agree. It would appear that what you wanted to highlight was that "if the every leader did their job better", and if a leaders job was to 'uphold the standards and requirements of the program' that there would be fewer Eagles. My point is that upholding the standards and requirements is an extremely minor element of scouting and belongs to the chartering organization and to the committee members not the Scoutmaster or Assistant Scoutmasters who job it is to deliver a quality program. And that if the scouts got a quality program, that the quality of advancement would for the most part take care of itself.

And I guess my point was that whether it is a unit outing or not the BSA does not require, request, suggest or support the unit leader handling prescription medications. And in fact with most prescription medications, in most states, it would be illegal for anyone other than; a licensed medical professional, the patient, or the patients parent or legal guardian, to have possession of those medications even temporarily. In addition most non-medical personnel are trained in the proper storage, or administration of those prescriptions and can find themselves in serious legal trouble ( both criminally and civilly) should a problem arise.

"If we (the collective leaders) did our jobs properly, there'd probably be a significant drop in Eagles." I would not bet on that. If every leader did their jobs properly wouldn't it be a better program in your community? If it were a better program wouldn't it be likely that more youth would join? If more youth joined wouldn't more of them stay in the program longer if it were a better program? If more youth stayed in the program longer wouldn't there be a higher probability of them gaining more advancement opportunities and so more advancement. If more scouts gained more advancement wouldn't the chance of more youth attaining Eagle increase? If the number of youth who joined, and the number that attained Eagle, grew at the same rate, wouldn't there be the same percentage of scouts earning Eagle as there are today? If you think that by doing your job better, less scouts would climb to Eagle, then you do not understand your job. It is not the adult leaders job to make or break Eagle Scouts. Their job is to deliver the Scouting program. The better we do that the greater effect we will have on a larger number of youth. How could that not have a positive effect on the number of boys choosing to work toward their eagle Scout Award?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

NJ if you were a scout leader what significance would you put on the fact that you take an oath to do your Duty to God, and to be reverent to God and that atheists by the very definition of their name, are incapable of meeting these requirements specified in the BSA program. And by the way this thread was about race not religion please refrain from continued hijacking.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

"Ah, so discrimination against atheists is good, eh? Just like discrimination against Jews used to be." No. Discrimination against atheists in the BSA is good since they support a belief in God and atheism does not. Think of it in more positive terms Merlyn. Rather than say a Fire Department discriminates against pyromaniacs, lets say that the goal of firefighting is contrast to pyromania and so to mingle them serves no constructive purpose for either party. Could the Fire Department change their values to embrace those of the pyromaniacs and yet retain their goals and values? Of course not. Scouting's beliefs and atheism's lack of beliefs are in direct conflict. Can they be merged and still retain each others specifc goals and values. No. So out of respect for each other each should be left alone to pursue their unique and specific points of view.

What is being completely unappreciated and unrecognized by Hunt, NWScouter and others is that the BSA was one of the first if not the first organization to open it's doors to the black community as well as to other minorities of its day with black members as early as 1911 Decades before the civil rights movement and even long before other organization such as the YMCA recognized the rights of blacks to participate. BSA did not cause the problem of segregation nor did it teach or support it. It was however a powerful defender of human rights and lead the way for every other organization to recognize and welcome minority members. Segregated troops existed in the north prior to the south because of deep rooted social beliefs of the south not due to policies of the BSA. Rather than looking over our shoulder at the past and trying to find fault with th BSA we should be looking with pride at the efforts made by the BSA to get the communities that had a scouting program at that time to change its society to meet the values of scouting rather than changing scouting to meet the temporary moral view of the times. The values of scouting are no less relevant today, and still we should look to set the example to society of how it needs the values of scouting rather than change scouting to the transient vales of the community. http://www.wfu.edu/campuslife/phfund/race_boy_scouts.html

Well that's what happens when you forget to sign in, you see posters you have marked as squelched. Ed, 1. National pays for the background check not the council 2. You haven't the slightest idea who they have contracted with, or what their cost structure is. For all you know it is a corporate donation. 3. The possibility that duplicate reports are taking place is only a possibility. It is just as likely that the data system catches it. 4. Your pessimism and lack of facts is always anticipated if not ever appreciated. I will be more carefull to sign in, so that we can both avoid this situation in the future.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Please note that it was the LDS who changed their policy not the BSA, since the BSA did not have a policy that discriminated based on race.

The hat is optional depending on whether you are indoors or outdoors and depending on the activity.

The purpose is to get all merit badge counselors registered so that there is a background check on all of them. Do do this they must all have completed a new application under code 42 as a counselor. The fact that are have previously registered as a counselor or as any other type of adult member in scouting is not relevent. For administrative and record keeping purposes even if a leader has previously registered on the new application, if they wish to be registered as a counselor they must have a separate application with a position code of 42. There is nothing you need to explain. This is a matter of compliance. If you want to be a counselor, or want someone to be a counselor, they must supply the correct application paperwork. If compliance is a problem with someone, thank them for considering to be a counselor but without the application they cannot register. Then go find a new counselor. Do some people get more than one background check? Probably but so what? It will be a proportionately few instances and it is a small price to pay in order to protect the scout and the program.

Hi Uncle G, Sorry to disagree with you, but there is nothing in the G2SS that that restricts the rules on prescription to Unit events. On the other hand, what the G2SS does in effect is remove the unit leader from the handling of prescription medications, and puts the responsibility into the hands of the Scout and his parents/guardians. So if the Summer Camp or any property or facility used by the scout wants to require that prescription medications be turned over, to a qualified medical staff, it is not the scoutmaster's (or any other unit leader)role to interfere. If the parents have questions or compliance problems it is between the family and the facility. The Scoutmaster has no legal or program position to justify inserting themselves into the situation. A private facility has the right to set its own health and safety regulations that are in keeping with the precautions required of them by state, or local regulatory agencies. They are also allowed to set such rules that assist them in administration of the camp. Since it is a private camp anyone not wishing to abide by their regulations is not required to enter or participate in activities at the facility. In simpler terms if the family has problems with the camp rules they can request for a change or choose not to attend, but it is none of the scoutmaster's (or other leaders) busuiness.

I do not question your experiences only the exaggerated conclusion that you are trying to draw from them.

Happy Dad's Day to all the fathers involved in the effort to give their childern a scouting experience. Whether your role was was just getting them signed-up and taking them to meetings, or volunteering your time as a leader, your son or daughter will be enriched in some manner because you helped them to be scouts. I hope you have a great Fathers's Day. Bob White

"I don't know if involving Venture youth in the Wood Badge training is a standard thing or not, but I don't think it would hurt the program in any way." Hi CampfireFairy Yes, using Venturing scouts is a part of the Wood Badge for the 21st Century training syllabus. I am very happy to hear you enjoyed your experience. The Ventureres who have staffed or courses have had similar responses. You should be very proud for being selected for such an important responsibility. I am sure you represented your program very well. Bob White