Bob White

Skeptic. If the topic no longer interests you simply do not read the thread. Why must it be locked? Is not the purpose of a discussion forum to discuss the topic? What topic does not have diverging views? BadenP, if you feel there are rules in the G2SS that are no longer valid, I woud think that as a former professional you would A) want them followed until they are changed, and B) Take action to have them changed by identify them to the proper committee for consideration. Which rules specifically have you identified and taken action to change?

BadenP if you would like to discuss Sea Scouting please do so in the appropriate thread. By the way I said that membership was up in the Central Region, and that is still correct. I never said I was in Kansas. I said that an early National Flag Ship was in Kansas. You continue to be in error. As for your last post on on rules nothing you wrote disagrees in any way with anything I have said. Nor does anything you wrote suppport Beavahs stance that he can ignore rules he personally does not like. Questioning rules does not mean not to obey them. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

I agree trevorum that you have not represented the issue accurately. Beavah's position is not that rules should be questioned, but rather that he and others can ignore rules based on their individual opinions and that it has no reflection on their personal values or ethics. Whereas I maintain that rules create a common struction, and that if you agree to a part of that community then you accept that structure. For instance, the Ten Commandments, therules of Baseball, the rules of Scouting, Fishing regulations in your State, etc. are all designed to give structure to a common community. If you are going to play basebal then everyone follows the rules. It doesn't matter that you think you should get four strikes for an out, the rules say three. If you are going fishing and the rules say that a Bss has to be 13 inches to keep, it doesn't matter if you think it should be 11, if you are leading a scout activity and the rules say set up swimm areas then you do it, your personal opinion is not what matters here. Beavah has not suggested that rules be questioned, he is trying to build support to justify ignoring rules without hisd actions being reflective of his values and ethics, and that is simply not how a society functions.

Are the scouts planning to stay as a patrol after the first year or do you anticipate that they will leave the NSp and join experienced patrol?

That kind of comparison is very misleading here CA. This is not a civil rights matter, You cannot possibble compare the issues being discussed here as related to the civil rights movement, segregation, Nazi Germany, or another similar human rights issue. We talking about Beavah and others picking which BSA regulations they want to follow. Violating Safe Swim Defense is not civil disobedience, it is reckless and endangers the welfare of others people's children. If Beavah or those who support his position want to dive into water that has not been cleared of obstacles then they should be allowed to do that, but to purposely ignore safety rules designed to protect others, because they are personally inconvenient to you is self-centered and displays a lack of values among other shortcomings.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I understand the temptation to mess with the game, but it's unfortunate you that you chose that path, it easily can obscure the lesson.

Sorry crv, the only adult role for ages 18-20 is that of an ASM. Committee members must be 21 or older.

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

More deceptive statements. What the articles beavah refers to says is "Contrary to popular belief, speed in itself is not a major cause of accidents. In fact, there is a consensus of professional opinions that many speed-related accidents result from both excessively low and high speeds." And it does not say that the State Police can alter the speed limits it says that in Michigan the "State" can alter them, not the State police. And no it doesn't say the State Police did override the local limits, it said they were trying to but that the Department of Transportaion had not approved it yet. BIG DIFFERENCE. just more false premises to support his false conclusions. Now BadenP joins in the falsehoods. 12 six foot dingys with sails where there was no sea scout ship is growth in your rose colored scouting world, true in your mind but not reality. I never said 12 6ft boats, I said we had over a dozen boats OVER the size of the 6ft dingys you referenced. You are so busy trying to attack me that you do not actually read the posts to try and understand them. You continue to try an attack my scouting experience when you know nothing about it. What I do and have done in scouting has nothing to do with what the rules of the program are or on the ehics of following the rules in a cummunity. A topic you have yet to address. If you think that your constant personal attacks on me will somehow advance Beavahs attempts to gain approval for not following the rules of the community, I think you are mistaken. The two subjects are not related. Your opinion of me is what is, emotionally charged and factually vacuous. Beavahs distain for the rules of a community are self-centered and unsupportable. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Beavah I have already answered the previous question and see no need to continueto repeat myself in hopes that you would learn something new. You are free to simply go back and reread the previous answers. As for David Co's situation. If indeed the School has instituted a poicy of no chocolate chip cookies, and David was a ware of the rule and still sent them then yes, That is an issue of personal values. The parent was out of fruit roll-ups; that is not the schools fault. There are other options for the parent, pack something other than roll-ups that are within the rules, plan better. Otherwise we are back to breaking the rule simply because it is inconvenient for you personally, and thas a lousy reason to break the rule. While you may feel that the scholl has no right to tell you what to feed your child the School board who you elected to represent you has the authority to determine what happens at school. If you don't like it elect new representatives who feel as you feel, but until then as long as he is a member of that school he has the obligation to follow the rules that have been established. So the parents resent the expense of fruit roll-ups. Then buy something else, they never said the poicy was that you had to send fruit roll-ups every day. As far as the situation where there boy took a friend to the counselors office....You do understand the concept of 'emergency' right? I mean if you were a Sea Scout on a boat that caught fire would you actually believe that you can't abondon ship and jump into the water if it were not the designated depth or roped off. Your attempot to use emergencies is pirifully weak and borders on deceptive. Quick civics lesson, State Police do not determine the law. Nor does a personal opinion of a State Trooper establish law. Certainly you realize that if you are ticketed for speeding and you try to use that as a defense that you will quickly have a traffic conviction on your record. Go ahead and have a high speed collision and tell the families of those you kill that lucky for them you wern't going under the average speed because that is really more dangerous. I doubt they will thank you for your high ethical choice. Your are still saying that if you try hard enough you can rationalize ignoring rules that you find personally inconvenient, despite your responsibility to the community. It's wrong, and it ignores the values of Scouting.

Doc, no one said they had to accomodate, I said that turning 18 doesn't mean they do not need to. If they accomodate a blind scout there is no reson to believe that once he turns 18 if they approve him as an ASM that he will no longer be blind or need accomodations. If crv's concern is the ability of the individual to do the job then he should not approve him, but he should not change his mind soley on the pressure from others.

"sea scouting has been shrinking due to a myriad of factors, the expense of maintaing a boat, insurance/fuel costs, the amount of labor, a lack of funding etc." More smoke and mirrors, opinions without facts. Sea Scouting has actually been growing. The Central Region for instance had a significant growth in Sea Scout membership over the past two years. The expense of maintaining boats is often no worse than the expense of outfitting a growing troop, The cost of fuel varies greatly with the type of vessel. Our largest boats (19-25ft) use about 3 gallons of gas a season. Insurance in most ships is handled no differently than insurance on a troop's trailer would be. Amount of labor? Our members supply the labor just as is done in any type of scout unit. As far as lack of funding, Ships fund raise just as a any Scout Unit might, and budget just as other Scout units do. Our ship for instance is on a river, we are are not exceptionally well funded and yet we are growing and have over a dozen boats sailing. Again, you make a lot of claims with very little fact. Nor have you actually commented yet on the topic of rules and ethics. Beavah it seems feels we cannot offer a good program without violating BSA policies, and yet we have a growing program and still follow Safety Afloat and Safe Swim Defense. Why is Beavah unable to? It comes down to choice, and choice is based on personal values.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Please remember that you are making the accomodation for the illness not the person. To say that it was ok to accomodate him as a youth but not as an adult suggests that you feel that the now he is 18 the illness should just go away. He is just older, he still has the need for accomodation. If you have an ASM. You are correct it is a priviledge to be a scout leader. A priviledge that YOU granted him. A priviledge that you seem to suggest he understands. Unless he has done something since the time you approved him to change your mind then I would see no reason to reverse your decision based on the fears of others over his illness. I remember as a Cub Scout we had a boy in our den that was blind. No other Den leader would take him because he was going to need "too much attention". We all learned to separate him from his disability. Perhaps this will be a good growth experience for your other leaders also.

What you want Beavah is to be able to pick and choose the rules you follow in scouting. You want to be be able to do this based on your personal convenienience. There is no religious doctrine that is compromised by the Safe Swim Defense Plan. You just don't want to follow it. You want to do what you want to do, and you want others to justify those actions for you. There is nothing heroic about ignoring the copyright protections of the BSA. You are not standing up for civil rights when you violate rules that you said you would follow. The values of citizenship do not change dispite your use of smoke and mirror discussion to hide your actually activity. If you choose to go forty in a 30 MPH speed zone, then you display a lack of ethics. It has nothing to do with religion, it has nothing to do with Thomas Jefferson, or the civil rights activities in Selma, Alabama. It is just choosing to ingore your safety and the safety of others for your own personal convenience. It is no different then your disregard for the rules of the BSA programs. As a parent of a Scout I expect "leaders" to be Trustworthy, Loyal, Obedient, your approach of picking and choosing the rules of the community to ignore or follow as you please does not reflect those values.

If anyone should need to keep an eye on the ASM it is the Scoutmaster, whether he is the ASM's father or not. So as long as the SM can help develop him, as he should do with any new ASM, then I see no reason to reverse your course. I would hope by now that the other adults have had some instruction and information shared with them about Aspergers and know how to work with the young man since he was a scout in the unit. Perhaps they are in need of additional communications and counseling from you to explain why you made this decision and how you feel the unit and the young man can benefiot from his participation in this new role.

Looking At the Varsity Scout training video no one is wearing a patrol emblem.

Careful BadenP your predjudice is showing. Again in an effort to attack me personally you ignore facts or make up new ones. To assume that if a Ship is not located on ocean front means that it is on a 'puny lake with 6ft dingys' shows not only a rush to insult me and other Sea Scout Leaders, but it displays a lack of knowledge of the geography of the United States, and a lack of knowledge about recreational boating as well. Lots of inland water ways are home to Sea Scout Ships many with vessels much larger than 6ft. The ship I serve has over a dozen boats over 6' feet in length in fact we have several that are 19ft or larger. Plus if you draw upon your knowledge of Sea Scouting, from the few years you say you were a professional with the BSA, then you will remember that one of the early National Flag Ships was from the plains of Kansas. So you see, open water is not a factor in successful Sea Scouting. While emotional, BadenP, your post lacks facts or knowledge, and not just about Sea Scouting. But of course none of what you bring up has anything to do with the topic of the thread. No doubt others have noticed, as I have, that you have yet to say what you believe you have only tried to insult my opinion. Why do you not use what experience or expertise you have to address the topic rather than attack me? Sea Scouting is not the topic, why do you as a former BSA pro with a few years of experience not addres the the ethics of following the rules of the BSA? I have answered beavahs erratic questions the problem is that neither of you like or accept the answers. That is a personal problem you will need to deal with yourselves. Best wishes, BW (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Beavah why is it you keep changing the scenarios when you do not like the answers. 1. If you choose to be a member of a community then you ought to accept and follow the rules of the community or expect and accept the consequences of the community. 2. The group that held the event was not a scout group. They have no requirement to follow the rules of the BSA or any other organization that does not have jurisdiction over them. I do not understand how you do not get that. 3. Again Beavah. Council and national camps have regular and safety inspections, and have policies and guidelines based on special program features that they are able to offer, that often exceed the safety requirements made on units, because they have resources that allow them to offer activities that are normally unavailable to units. 4. Yes, as a unit activity you must follow the safe swim defense plan. However only a small percentage of Sea Scout Ships actually have a ship in an area where this kind of activity is even possible. I have no experience as a leader in such a location, and it could be that there are approved safety precautions that are available to them for such special activities. If there were no approved variances then yes it would be unethical for a leader to ignore any required safety regulation. As an example, I know that scouts are allowed in deeper water for activities where they wear life jackets. I swear Beavah never before have I seen anyone try as hard as you to justify violating rules. If you cannot behave within the rules of your community in or out of scouting then do not follow the rules, but stop trying to get others to approve your poor choices. In addition, consider not trying to convince others to follow your example of such unethical decision-making. It is the antithesis of the Scout Oath and Law

Your local scout shop either has or can order the Bear Patrol emblem. They sell for $1.99. Or you can order them on-line at www.scoutstuff.org Who told you that patrol patches aren't approved? Didn't you say you were a Varsity Coach? That could be the problem here. Varsity Teams don't have Patrols they have Squads, and I don't think that they use patrol emblems to designate Squads.

Eagle 1982, I don't think you quite get the kinds of commonalities that kids consider when they form groups.

Without feedback how do you know that communication took place?

rdcrisco, assuming you are the scoutmaster howdo you know that the info was not sent to the person who was registered in that position before you and simply ignored? Who have you invited from the council to visit the troop?

Perhaps packsaddle the phrase would be fighting "fact and fiction".

1. I find questioning a persons religious traditions a very intrusive and rude question. Shall we stay on topic. Do I knowingly violate the rules of any organization I belong to or thosde of my community? No Do I think choosing to violate these rules simply beacuse they are personally inconvenient show a lack of personal values and ethics? Yes I do. Do I think you endorse and encourage such behavior? I think your own posts show that you do. 2. The triatholon was not a troop function, it was organized and managed by another organization and as such is not subject to the rules of the BSA. If done as a troop activity with the permission of the local council then I will presume that they were aware and agreeable to the conditions and safety elements of the event. 3.You should knw by know that the Guiode to Safe Scouting is a unit resources for operating activities safely at the unit level. It says so right at the top of the manual. BSA camps operate under the safety rules and safety inspections that are approved and supervised by the BSA from the regional and national offices. 4. See #3. By the way your original scenario was a Sea Scout unit activity involving a rope, a scout, and having him go for a swim overboard, a far cry from what you now represent you words as being. Is it in fact the obligation of a member of a community to follow the laws and rules of the community as a moral imperative in each of these four cases? It would be if what your were posting were actually the rules that govern these activities outside of the unit, but they are not. False premise, false conclusion. This is getting to be quite the habit with you Beavah.

The tour permit is not related to the BSA accident insurance in any way. If there were to be an injury to a BSA member while traveling to a Scouting activity or event the BSA insureance would not come into play until after the insurance of all other parties who were involved was exhausted. For instance, if on the way to family camp a family vehicle carrying a Cub Scout was struck by another driver, the liability insurance of the driver that struck them would be primary, the families insurance would be next, and if there were expenses related to the scout's medical coverage that extended beyond those two coverages then he BSA coverage would be in effect, with or without the tour permit being filed. That said some misleading information has been shared I beleive. If you are not sure if a Tour Permit needs to be filed then you should check with your local Council office. Do not assume with tour permits that what the rule is in one council will be true in all councils. (This message has been edited by Bob White)