Bob White

Thanks boleta but why not just call it by the correct term, an 'activity uniform'? T hat way we all understand what is meant. If you ask ten scouters what a class b uniform is you will get 10 different answers. At least with the correct term there is a 'uniform' answer to what that uniform is.

"class b dress paints" There is no such thing in scouting.

"This is a good comparison to another poost in the forums right now!!! Perhaps we should compare views on the underage drunken Eagle scout from Mass., who thinks nothing is illeagal or wrong of having his parents throw a boozefest for underage children in his honor(aside the fact that the cops showed up)." Marinelaw, Is it now your intention to make this act by an individual the fault of the BSA? You raised the alarm over the USCG when in fact there is no problem, and that is according to the USCG. Now you want to compare a bad decision by one of 5-million members to being similar. You need to relax. As Geraldo said when he opened Al Capone's vault "There is nothing here!"

Not all Eamonn Quite the contrary. I am saying that the more active and productive a Charter Organization is the more it will be appreciated and listened to. it's not about being the whiney, squeaky wheel. It is about being the forward moving, smooth action, axle that keeps the wheels of scouting turning, that will get an organization more input. Let others have to tolerate squeaky wheels. if you want to do things with the BSA on levels beyond unit service then you need to know how to move things forward.

Why 6, why not 5? My guess is that the limit is based on the size and weight capacity of the vessel rather than on the sleeping accomodations.

Mich thanks for getting the facts.

If I am understanding Neilup correctly, he is saying that the more active and involved a Chartering Institution is, the more weight it will carry in local and national decision making. I would have to agree. In fact, I wouldn't want it any other way.

You are getting warmer SA, Like with most organizations the representatives that are currently Charter Organizations determine the membership rules. Those members are represented by The CORs, and selected representatives, that sit on the BSA Executive Board.

Foto, I think I plainly acknowledged that who the boat belongs to is of little consequence to the safety of the passengers. I was trying to clarify who it is that is leagally responsible for meeting the USCG regulations. Marinelaw began by attacking the BSA but then said that they are not the BSA boats or crews. I think it would important for him to explain which it is, and who has actually violated the rules, and which specific rules. Most impotantly, I would like to know from marinelaw, if once the proper authorities notified the BSA were the needed corrections made?

The Cub Pack is certainly not a democracy. Neither is the Scout Troop. For that matter neither is the U.S.. We operate our government, our scout troops and our councils as republics. You cannot put the BSA in a structural box as other companies. It will not fit. Since the implementation of councils in 1916 the BSA has used this same unique structure. Charter organizations that use scouting provide representatives, Representatives elect Members at Large. These two groups form District/council committees to administrate the local council. Then they select representatives to the Regional and National Committees. National BSA Council is made of representatives that are selected both locally and nationally. But many of the committees are functions of the National Office not the national Council. Since many national committees are ad-hoc, the members are selected for the resources they bring to that specific topic or project. Standing National Council committees are made of the regional and national volunteers selected by the Council and Regional committees. They are not elected by unit volunteers because our membership and authority is tied to the unit and extends no further. The BSA does not belong to the unit volunteer. It is the program delivered by the unit volunteer. The program belongs to the Chartered Organizations that use the scouting program. They do not elect a representative to the council, they assign them, the Charter Rep. Does that make more sense?

Excuse me but if the boats in question are not the BSA's wasn't it the Boat owner/operator who was at fault if the proper marine laws were not followed. If I charter a boat it is not my resonsibility to see that they have the proper crew, although I agree it is in my best interest that they do. So who exactly was found to have violated the maritime rules, the owner/operator or the BSA?

If you know how the program works then what do you not understand? "Regardless, people are selected for these committees in part because it is believed that they are "representative" of Scouts and Scouters throughout the organization." You make a false assumption. These people are selected for what they bring as an individual, their skills, knowledge and experience. If the task requires feedback from the field then the committee will search that out. But you cannot run a programs this size through consensus. National is made up of numerous volunteer committee in all three program areas. Many of them contain youth members. I have no idea the specific number of either at any given time. it depends on what is being worked on. Yet even without this knowledge thousands of scout units meet every week and have no problem doing their jobs? How can this be?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Welcome marinelaw. I hope you will stay and give us some calm, rational, discussion on this. Verbal arm flailing will not help the situation or help you to convey your message clearly. The BSA has nothing to gain by ignoring any law, and has for years worked closely with the USCG on a number of events and programs throughout the BSA. An example of there willingness to comply is this document from 1994. http://www.seascout.org/for_leaders/safe_boating_standards.html Please pay particular attention to the following items extracted from this document. "Thus, BSA owned vessels are not considered "small passenger vessels" or "passenger vessels" regardless of the number of Scouts or Venturers on board, and therefore not subject to U.S. Coast Guard operator's licensing and inspection. (USCG letter of 10/06/94 and the USCG publication titled Federal Requirements and Safety Tips for Recreational Boats are attached)" and "6- When a vessel is cruising for more than 12 hours of continuous operation, these minimum crew guidelines will be doubled to provide two (2) watches." So as you see the Florida Sea Base was indeed made aware by the BSA that a second watch was required some ten-years ago. We had a few units visit the base in the last two years and all were very positive in their reports. Now, what specifically happened that you are aware of on a first hand basis. Please no more rumors about what you heard about from someone else. While I agree that a person over 300-lbs is a safety risk to himself and others, a scout who lies about his age is hardly the fault of the BSA. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

I think you should discuss it with the Scout Executive in your local council. Basically when you make your cause more important than the BSA program, you will be granted more time to pursue that which you have chosen to be more important, by relieving you of your burden of BSA membership. I other words when the the unit, local council, or nation council feel you are a detraction from the efforts and resources of the program they can rescind your membership at their will. Specifically "the national officers agree that "conduct of both Scouts and Scouters must be in compliance with the Scout Oath and Law" and that "membership is contingent upon one's willingness to accept the values and standards espoused by the Boy Scouts of America," Our job is to live the scouting program. It is a big challenge and it is a personal commitment. And it is not one everyone can fulfill.

Scouting is not a camping club. The outdoors is one method used to teach the values and achieve the mission of scouting. Why would a parent do that to their child? Why put them in an organization that defines itself largely by its insistence on duty to God and requires each member to be revenet to God and encourages religious service and participation if that is not the value shard by the family? Why join an organization based on personal integrity by living a lie. What kind of parent would actually do that to their child?

No

"Maybe their boys just want to go camping. Then by all means mom and dad should take them camping. but don't apply for membership in the BSA. This is not a camping club. It is a values based education system, and if these are not the values you want to learn then do not join. It would be beyond hypocritical, you are lying to yourself and the BSA, there is no benefit to either.

Scouting does exist to serve its members. The YOUTH members. Adults volunteers are just one of the tools used to do that. Boys were scouting for years before the BSA existed. It was created and organized with adults to be able deliver the program to a larger youth base with a foundation established to last for many years. 110-million members and 94 years later and still going strong. i think the method of administration that has gotten us here has worked just fine. Don't you?

But TP there is training program that covers those points for crews. It is called the Crew Officer Seminar and the agenda is on page 41 of the Venturing Leaders manual. It uses the Venturing Fast Start Video and printed support materials from the manual.

I swear I only raised my hand on the first question! Scouts Honor!

Ah, there is the rub. You misunderstand the structure of scouting. These folks do not represent "us". They are selected from us to share their skills and experience to improve and support the program for us to deliver. The BSA is not "your" organization. We are volunteer deliverers of the program. We work for the chartered organizations as unit leaders, we work for the community of chartered organizations as District volunters. We work for the non-profit corporation that is the council, as council level volunteers. We work for the non-profit corporation of the BSA as regional/national volunteers. You are selected for various levels of service based on your skills and Scout spririt. We do not own the program. It is ours only in the sense that we accept and practice its methods, aims, mission and values. We are the servant leaders of the BSA. That's a good thing. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

No, you are part of the Commissioning Staff, but you are the program leader for the Boy Scout Roundtables. There is no position code or POR patch for a District Roundtable Commissioner. There is Cub Roundtable Commissioner, Boy Scout Roundtable Commissioner, Venturing Roundatable Commissioner, and Varsity Huddle Commissioner. Each of those commissioners then have codes and positions for their Roundtable Staffs. Perhaps your District Commissioner has assigned an ADC (assistant district commissioner) to oversee the Roundtable commissioners. So whether you know it or not you are now in charge of the Boy Scout Roundtable program for the district, and it Boy Scout roundtable staff. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

"Are boys this age able to handle the responsibility? Mike, Doesn't that depend totally on the individual boy? For that reason the guide I used as a Den Leader and the one I taught the Den Leaders when I was Cubmaster is to let the parents decide. Our job was to teach them the safe use and care of the pocket knife. Whether or not they owned or carried one was up the parent/guardian, not us as the cub leaders. We had an agreement with the parents that if the scout was to have a knife at the den meeting it was to remain in their pocket until needed and then he had to as a leader if he could take it out and use it. Everyone felt this was fair and do-able. We never had a mishap. This might work for you as well.

OK so we are going with the 200 to 500 number right? Let's look on the positive side and say 500. So of the approximately 4.5 current youth and adult volunteers in the BSA you have NOT met 99.09 percent of them yet, but still you seem surprised that you have not met any volunteer that sits on a national committee. There are volunteer representatives on the national committees both youth and adult. I can tell yopu from meeting a couple of them that there are neqarly 200 involved in the advancement comittee alone. If you want to learn more about the national committees here is a thought. Who at national have you asked? Who locally for that matter have you asked? Have you participated in any national level events? Did you ask anyone there? Every year I have gone to Philmont Training Center a group of national directors have visted each course and answered every questioned asked of them. What would you need answered to be a better unit levelk leader? Who have you tried to contact to get that answer? It seems to me that the membership simply HAS NO SAY IN MAKING THE MEMBERSHIP RULES, or at least no members that I know." You know 1/100th of 1% of the BSA membership. The problem isn't that volunteers don't have a say, the problem is that most unit volunteers have a very limited exposure to scouting beyond there council boundaries. That is neither a good or bad thing...it is just a fact. This is a huge organization. You may never personally meet a volunteer with gold shoulder tabs or COR on the National Executive Board but that doesn't mean they don't exist, just that your role in scouting has not brought you in contact with them. I have met a dozen or more and I am sure there are some on the forum, or lurking, who have met more or may even be one.

I think that's great, and I think most scouts behave well. But nobody trained them on courteous behavior? Ever? Maybe not in a sit down talking head fashion, but you don't think anyone ever set the example for them when they were younger, or gave a leader some quiet guidance or suggestion? Ever? I only ask because I have never met a gang of teenagers that were born with a predisposition to be quite as a group. A nice characteristic but hardly one that is commonly found in teen genetics.