Bob White

It also says "Scout spirit refers to the effort you make to live up to the ideals of Scouting." You are correct boleta. That is what it says. "Scout Spirit refers to the effort you make to live the ideals of scouting." Uniforming is NOT an "Ideal" of scouting. Uniforming is a "Method" of Scouting. The "ideals" of scouting are the Oath, Law, Motto, and Slogan. These are the elements that Scout Spirit is to be based on, not the methods. You need to be aware that if a scout excercises his option to appeal the decision, he will be upheld by the council and national. The unit is adding to the advancement requirements. The only thing that has allowed this practice to continue is that no scout in the unit has been aware that he has the right to appeal. It's not that the unit is right, it's that they have never been caught.

The chartering organization can solicit donations however they wish and share that in part or whole with their scout unit(s) as long as they do not use the name and image of the Boy Scouts of America, unless they follow the rules of the BSA. What is so unusual about that? Lets say Fuzzy that you were an owner of United Widgets and as a customer of yours I went out and raised money representing myself as raising the money for your company. But then I kept all the money myself. I bet you wouldn't be to happy about that. But what if you said that as a franchisee I could sell products that you endorsed and present myself as a representative of your company provide I share an equal percentage of the profits with you. Thats BSA Popcorn. Suppose you wanted to ask others to invest in your company, and then you used that money to expand your services to all your franchisees. Thats FOS Suppose your franchisees asked investors to invest i United Widgets and then kept the money themselves. That's wrong, that's units soliciting donations.

The Council solicits and accepts donations through Friends of Scouting and other avenues as a legitimate 501-3c organization, with the proceeds benefiting the entire Council not just a single unit. There is no comparison. When the council raises money using the name and image of the Boy Scouts of America the resources raised benefits all scouts. For a unit to ask for donations for "scouting" but then keeping those resources only their unit, is improper. The BSA does allow chartered organizations under specific conditions to raise money for their scout unit while using the BSA name and image. Those conditions are found on the Unit Money Earning Application. They include that a unit cannot solicit donations, but must exchange goods or services of a reasonable value for the donation. It also restricts units from using the name and images of the Boy Scouts of America to advertise, promote or sell a commercial name-brand product. This information is readily available through numerous resources of the BSA and shared in leader training. As is an explanation of how units and council raise funds.

"The Scout who does not wear the uniform can legitimately be faulted for not showing Scout Spirit." Sorry boleta, but that is not correct according to the advancement program of the BSA. Scout Spirit as defined by the BSA in the Boy Scout Handbook, the Scoutmaster Handbook, and the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual is about how the scout lives the ideals of the oath and law in his everyday life. Any council or national appellate board of review would reverse the unit decision and pass the scout on Scout Spirit if he could give evidence of living the Oath and Law even if he never wore the uniform. No unit or individual other than the national executive committee of the BSA can add to or subtract from the advancement requirements as determined by the Boy Scouts of America. The unit you serve is adding to those requirements.

"Something I said a long time ago apparently set all of you against me, hence that post stating "you guys don't know squat".I want you guys to know I really didn't mean it." You publicly post personal attacks that you don't really mean? Why would a person do that? "I hope we could start over, but if you guys don't want to thats okay too." I can't speak for anyone else but if not starting over is okay with you, then it's fine with me too.

Merriam-Webster. There is a difference:).

Charters! There's a difference. A church.

If it was a council Summer Camp then the Council can indeed be culpable for the loss.

Hi scouting-nerd, Let's clear up some misunderstandings using information available in BSA resources rather than personal opinions. First requiring a full uniform is not a violation of any BSA policy. If anyone thinks it is, I would welcome them to post it here. A unit for example can require that all its members have and wear a complete field uniform at every troop meeting in order to be a member. Adding to or subtracting from advancement requirements is a violation of the advancement policies. To require a scout to wear anything specifically in order to advance is a violation, whether you require a full uniform or a plaid shirt. The Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual says that "a scout should appear neat in his appearance and his uniform should be as correct as possible" and that is all anyone in your council can require. Now what does the BSA require as to the uniform? In the Cub Scout Leader Handbook it says that you should "wear the complete uniform or no uniform at all". The Boy Scout Handbook says (and this gets a little wordy) "The complete uniform includes the Scout long-sleeved, or short-sleeved shirt, the Scout Pants or shorts, Scout belt and buckle, Scout socks or knee socks, a neckerchief and cap or campaign hat are optional." note that the cap is optional something many posters seem to miss. It then goes on to say "Wear full uniform for all ceremonies and indoor activities, such as troop meetings, courts of honor and most other functions. The uniform should also be worn during special outdoor occasions, such as Scout shows, flag ceremonies and special times at summer camp" I call your attention to the last line, "special times" at summer camp, not 100% of the time. It then describes the Activity uniform. "For outdoor activities, scouts may wear troop or camp t-shirts with scout pants or shorts". So at no time in any BSA publication is a mixed uniform/street clothing suggested or supported. Nor are the words Class A or Class B used. And nothing suggests that a scout must be in complete uniform to advance. The National Honor Patrol Award does require that 75% of the members of the patrol wear complete and correct uniforms. So how do you get the troop members into a complete uniform short of making it a requirement for membership? That is what leadership is all about. For that question the best answer is training. Hope this helps, Bob White

A scout unit may not take money without an exchange of product or services of a reasonable value and quality. You can sell Scout Popcorn but you may not ask for donations. You can have a carwash for a price set by the customer, but they recieve the car wash in return so it is not actually a donation, it is a purchase. Read the restrictions on the Unit Money earning Form that a unit must file with the council for any fund raising activity they do.

If you followed the rules of the BSA your liability protection would be intact.

If you want the liability umbrella to be in effect you need to file a tour permit and abide by the G2SS and all laws pertaining to the event. The permit does many things, first it forces a unit to think through some details it might otherwise miss, it files a plan with council and or regional as to where you are and what you are doing, it reminds the tour leader of their responsibilities. But it doesn't make the BSA or the local council liable for a group or individuals bad decisions or behavior.

Scout units are not to solicit donations, but I am not aware of any rules that do not allow them to accept donations. If the donor wants those donations to be tax deductible they will need to direct them to a 501-3c organization such as the council, and some but not all chartering organizations.

I am not surprised that the camp guide recommended the scouts be in uniform, but I am surprised that they specified the field uniform. Not only is a correct activity uniform every bit as "in uniform" as the field version but it would be more appropriate to the activities of a summer camp. Also the current recommendation stands in contrast to the information found in the official BSA resources as to the purpose and use of the field uniform. Since this is only the camp's recommendation I see no problem with the unit making a decision that reflects the BSA uniform standards and wearing an activity uniform for the informal activities and the field uniform at meals and ceremonies as requested. Besides that, if Acco's transcript is accurate the camp recommends the field uniform "100% of the time". HMMMMM that could make it tough for those scouts going from the swimming pool to a meal at the dining hall!

Big Dog, If the Scouts themselves are not selling or promoting the fireworks sale then neither the G2SS or the Unit Money Earning policies are being violated. If the family or company selling the fireworks are making a donation to the Scouts, then that is no problem either. Where there might be a problem is if they are using the name or images of Scouting to advertise the sale. That would be a violation of the BSA's trademark rights, unless they have secured permission from the local council or the national office of the BSA. Just by saying to a customer that "proceeds will be donated to the Scouts" is using the reputation and name of the BSA to sell the product, and would require the seller to secure permission from the BSA. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Sorry I missed that. I would have the PLC decide when it would be appropriate to wear the Field uniform and especially support that it be worn to meals and ceremonies. Otherwise I would dress more appropriately for the activities of the day. I would also work with the camp's program director to establish a more reasonable uniform guide.

Units are the responsibility of the charter organizations that ownthem, they do not belong to the council. If this were a district or council event then the council would be exposed to liability for the loss. However if this was a unit event then the council is not a culpable party. The charter organization and the registered adults would be exposed to the loss.

If it was the scouts who started the fire then they were in violation of the law and their contract. They can expect to lose. Regardless of the 15 year old supervision at some level there was an adult who should have known what was going on and what the rules were. Scout lead does not mean adults abandoned. My only question is was this a council or unit event, the article does not say.

Boleta, History has not supported your theory. There were years back in the late 60s early 70s when scoutings number dropped significantly. They did alter the skills and advancement and even the look of the handbook. But the values of scouting were not altered. You say that scouting needs to change as times change and scouting has, as even you admit. So I am unsure of your point. If you are saying that the BSA has to change its values in order to ekeep membership high in the future, then I think you have underestimated both the BSA's dedication to the values of scouting and the core values held by the majority of people. To say that values have to change with the future ignores the values that have not altered in thousands of years even though societies have changed over and over again.

Hi Eamonn, I had a hard time understanding what BadenP was trying to say. I thought that he was trying to insult me with the fattest part of his post, but then he put me in the company of a couple old veterans like you and OGEwhich I take as a compliment. So I'm not sure what the guy is getting at. I'm not sure he has the foggiest idea either. BW

Boleta, I hope you will understand that people will discuss this topic according to their personal frame of reference. They can hardly discuss other religions as well as they feel they can disuss their own. And I admit embarrassment over the way some of "Christianity" has been expressed in this thread. If nothing else this underscores why the BSA has avoided choosing a home team as it were. I think the BSA has done as good a job as is possible to experess what they want the program to be able to instill in a person without forcing any specific religion on anyone. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Marinelaw If your purpose is to make sure the FSB is operating in accordance with the USCG and that the participants welfare is a priority, I believe that has been established. The FSB has worked closely and in compliance with the related regulations and regulatory agencies since it opened. Mich contacted the USCG station that monitors the Florida Sea Base and all is well. You should be pleased to know that your concerns were unfounded and everything in in accordance to the law. BUT, if your goal is to have a personal hissy fit and bombard us with rumor, insults and innuendo, then you will be playing by yourself, as I do not see others willing to join in your assault. I for one will no longer respond to you until you present some facts, and do it in a more mature manner. Best wishes Bob White

Once, very early in my time as a scout leader, as I sat around a campfire with the troop where I was one of three assistant scoutmasters, we did a regular activity of choosing a point of the law and discussing it as a troop. The SM chose Reverent on this occasion. As we went around the circle each of us gave a example of what that word meant to us, and how we felt we fulfilled that responsibility. One scout about 13-years old at the time, said with great sincerity, "I'm not sure I believe in God". The assistant scoutmaster sitting next to hi, happened to be a Presbyterian minister. The man put his arm around the scout's shoulder and said, "the most important thing for you to accept is that God believes in you". That simple gesture and sharing of God's love opened up a whole new discussion among the boys. What it also brought out was the scout's battle with his belief in God and how God could take his father when he was younger. The young scout understood God as the creator, and God as the supreme force in the universe. What he couldn't understand was how and why God allowed certain things to happen in the world. He expressed that confusion in the only way he could think how to, as "I don't believe in God". But after some simple counseling around a pile of embers we learned he meant "I don't understand God". I don't know anyone who completely does understand God, and I would be prone not to trust anyone who says they did. But I saw nothing in what the scout said that made me think he did not accept God. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

You call the shots. I wearing the uniform for meals is a camp rule then I would recommend to the SPL to support it. If not I would not press the issue unless the junior leaders wanted to do it. I would suggest the SM get trained, or at the very least read the handbooks again. The Field uniform is not appropriate or practical for wearing 100% of the time at summer camp. I cant imagine a good reason for a SM to require it.

ScouterPaul raises some excellent points and I agree with most of them. While I would never even consider denying membership from a boy who believed in God when his parents didnt, I also do not see believing in heaven as equally being reverent to God or as doing ones duty to God. So before the scout would ever be eligible to advance something more concrete in his convictions or belief system would have to appear. The scout has a right to know that. As leaders we have a responsibility to make that transformation possible by giving the scout opportunity and support in growing closer to God . I think it is very unrealistic to expect every scout age boy to understand God, or fully understand his person or cultural faith. I do think that a willingness to accept that there is a God and that we have a responsibility to show respect and perform works of good will in fulfillment of our responsibility too Him. As long as a parent understand that we are going to be exposing their son to these values as is not going to be countering it in their home instruction then the scout has every reason to be able to meet the membership and advancement requirements of the BSA. But I do not think the BSA intends to be training a scout in values that are contrary to his parents. A scout should not have to choose his parents values over those of Scoutings. If a parent does not see scouting as a support and continuance of their training then they should not look for membership in the BSA. (This message has been edited by Bob White)