Bob White

Merlyn Allow me to draw your attention to the disclaimer that sits atop every page in this forum. "Posts within this forum express only the views of the poster." There have been a few posters out of 1.5 million registered volunteers. You don't even know that these posters are even really scouters, or that they are not just baiting others in the conversation. You can no more use these threads to represent the BSA program, then you could use the phone book as evidence of how many atheists there are.

I agree with everything you said Eamon. The goals of District/ council and the unit differ greatly in some respects, but neither can succeed without the other. I also agree that tenure doesn't mean knowledge or ability. The capacity some people have to do a job badly for a prolonged period of time is amazing to me. As a district or council leader you have a responsibility to thousands of people to get these kind of volunteers productive or out of the way of those who are productive. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

I'm not sure becoming a JASM will solve the problem Ryon. AS a JASM you have no more direct responsibility to the troop meeting program then you have now. What did you learn in leadership that could get the troop meeting program back on track?

Training is truly your answer here. The BSA program is very specific about this. Troop Committees operate very differently then packs. In the Troop Committee Guidebook you will see it spelled out. The Troop Committees job is to support the program decisions of the Patrol Leaders Council, NOT to make the program decisions. Convince the committee to spend 5 hours and get trained. 2-hours New Leader Essentials 3-hours Troop Committee Challenge Then just keep reminding them to follow the program if they want the program to work. Every boy deserves a trained leader.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Kenk A more accurate call would be "hand salute". Both the hand over the heart and the Scout saluter are hand salutes. You are correct that when in uniform the use of the Scout Salute is appropriate and out of uniform the hand over the heart salute is appropriate. Where you need fine tuning is on the uniforms. Adults and Boy Scouts have two uniforms. The field uniform is the tan shirt, green Scout pants or shorts, Scout belt, Scout socks, Hat and neckerchief optional. The Activity uniform is A scout t-shirt or polo shirt, Green Scout pants or shorts, Scout belt Scout socks. The Cub Uniform is the Blue uniform shirt, Blue Cub uniform pants or shorts, Cub belt, Cub socks, Rank hat, rank neckerchief. There is no cub activity uniform at this time. As of August 1, Tigers will have an activity uniform or the Orange shirt or sweatshirt, Cub uniform pants or shorts, Cub belt, Cub socks. The BSA does not recognize or use the terms Class A or Class B. I hope this helps, Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Not sure which tapes you are watching but the current training tapes and the syllabus metion a few times and even demonstrate that things don't go perfectly. The best you can do is do the best you can do. Introduce the patrol method in manageable bites and build on each element as you go along. Implementing the patrol method is a never ending process that as an a adult leader you repeat over and over again as new scouts move into leadership position. The important thing is you realize the importance and value of the patrol method and that you continually ask yourself, "What would be a way to accomplish this through the patrol method?" Have fun, BW

I remember sitting on the basement steps and watching my older brother's den meeting through the railing every Tuesday at 4PM.

I believe the vast majority of BSA problems could be solved by Charter Organizations taking their responsibility to select responsible leaders more seriously.

Group dynamics are a funny thing and never cease to amaze me. If you are aware of the 4 stages of team development you see that we go through them all the time on this board. it becomes especially noticeable when new names join the board. it also happens in scouting when new boys join, when new adults join, when different program levels meet, etc. A group of unit leaders usually reach the stage of "performing", where everyone knows their job and what each others skills and abilities are. More importantly they see a specific shared goal within their group. District and council committees reach that same point. But a problem often arises when Unit and District meet. The biggest problem I see, and this was evident before I volunteered for District service, is that while most District and Council volunteers have unit experience and understand the goals of unit scouting, very few unit scouters know or understand the goals of district and council support services. Because of that District/Council service becomes a damned if you do, damned if you don't existence. The District is responsible for membership growth, but if the District helps bring more charter organizations and more boys into scouting then many unit volunteers complain. Most common among the complaints is that "we" the district, are hurting "their" units. What is not being realized is that the district is responsible for bring in more organizations and people to Scouting. The District and Council are responsible for raising money and operating camps and other activities. The have to deal with units and leaders who refuse to host an FOS presentation or sell popcorn or attend the council camp. Then those same leaders will complain when camp budgets are cut or old camp equipment isn't replaced. So when we do our jobs we are told we are to focused on money. When the income can't cover the costs of operation then we accused of "an accounting scandal. So how do we get Unit leaders to understand the purpose of the District and Council. At Roundtables? The units we have problems with don't come to Roundtable. At training? the units we have the most problems with aren't trained, and in some cases brag about being untrainable. When they ask for information? That seems to be the best time unfortunately few ask. So what normally happens is what has happened ion the thread. When circumstance go beyond the group or individuals knowledge base they let emotions take over. The most damaging is mistrust. One that sets in the group or individual no longer seeks facts, what they want and are drawn to are people who will support their feelings, rather than solve their problems. They want to "feel" justified in their opinions and decisions. I am far understanding of the people who don't know then I am of the people who don't want to know but are satisfied with just complaining. But the ones who really turn me off are the enablers. the ones who do not bring any facts or knowledge to the problem but just support the the person who is upset to fell better about being angry. We have some really experienced enablers in this thread. For scouting to work we have to work together at all levels. For District/Council to support units, units have to support the District/council. There is no other way to succeed.

OK

I would think everyone will agree that his reported actions and attitude do not represent the rank or the program accurately. For all we know the national office could already be in the process of removing his Eagle. The National Board of Review only meets once a quarter to make such decisions. If it is done you will probably never know since, for reasons of confidentiality, the BSA will not publish the action.

It is difficult to write policies that cover every conceivable situation. But I think we agree that when you read the G2SS what it wants is to create privacy between adult and youth members and to have separate facilities for females. I am confident that if you follow that purpose you will be fine. Have a great time at camp. BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Wojauwe's answer is ,as Eamomm might say "spot on". Nicely done wojauwe.

A BALOO trained adult is required for Family Camping. I am not aware of a Pack Trainer being required.

I do not think that either would be considered wrong as long as the effort is made to provide adequate supervision, respect for privacy, and protection. I would leave the decision to the leader of the event and follow in your personal behavior what you know to be good YP practices.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I am curious as to where the "accounting Scandal" comes into play. Many corportaions, for profit as well as non-profits go through finacial problems that have nothing to do with scandal. If the money going out exceeds the money being raised then finamcial problems will occur. It does not all happen on the expenditure side. Units who do not sell popcorn, host an FOS presentation, attend district and council events, place a huge financial burden on the local scouting program. Nothing posted so far has shown improper bookeeping or scnadal other than a very misleading thread title. More facts=less fear.

Jason To answer all your questions: 1.If my son were to die, the last thing that I would care about is how the media reports it. I carry his love as I carry Jesus'.. in my heart not in the words of others. I cannot believe that anyone would be so needy at their time of loss as to care about the media coverage, or to be unable to celebrate God without hearing His son's name spoken aloud even tho it is in his heart. 2.I already read the Bible do there is no need for me to begin, I will simply continue. 3.Certainly there is hope that your attitude will change. A good time to start would be NOW. You are welcome and encouraged by Scouting to hold onto your faith, but you are also instructed to be courteous to the millions of others who also believe in God but who have customs, rites and tenets that differ from your own. If you are unable to control your own needs at the expense of others, then scouting was not the movement for you to apply to for membership. Ed, In the words of Marcus Tullius Cicero "I prefer tongue-tied knowledge to ignorant loquacity." (feel free to run that through spellcheck if you wish)

Pack Trainer is a unit position just as any other aduklt leadership position in a Pack. All you need to do is register in a pack as the Pack Trainer. The responsibilities begin with getting all new leaders in that Pack to view the fast start video for their Pack position, encouraging them to complete their basic training in the first weeks of taking their position, promoting attendance at District at Council training events. Depending on the decision of your local District/Council Training committee you may have the ability to present other basic training courses to the adult leaders in your unit. Check with you local Training committee chairperson for local information. Good luck, have a good time as you work your ticket. BW

The OA is still a Boy Scout Event as is Boy Scout Resident Camp. Even though the person may have a Venturing membership. In Boy Scouts the adult age is 18-years and up. At the Camp the Venturers are not there as Venturers they are there as Staff at a Boy Scout Event, the Boy Scout Rules would apply. If there are enough accomodations to separate 18-20 year olds as well then all the better, but I find nothing that requires that.

As I understand it you will need three housing divisions. one for male youth 17-years and younger, one for male adults 18-years and older, one for females. That fact that they are Venturers is of no concern. That is only their membership of record. They are still participating in a Boy Scout Camp activity where 17 and younger are youth, and 18 and older are adults.

Jason and Rooster, You both have strong beliefs, that's wonderful. But you are not the only two, so do millions of people in many different ways. In Scouting religion is like politics. Scouting doesn't care what party you are just don't force it on others. The BSA promotes active citizenship but not support of a specific party. In reverence the BSA supports a belief in God but as leaders you are not to support or criticize a personal belief in God that doesn't jive with your personal belief in God. Those are the values you agreed to support. Part of the problem is the title of this thread. It promotes the very divisiveness that the values of scouting discourages. What is the true religion? To each person it should be the one they believe in. If they didn't think it was then why would they follow it? Scouting expects you to follow the most important key to leadership. Do onto others as you would have them do onto you. If you want others to respect your religious belief then you must begin by respecting theirs and the Scout Law calls upon you to do just that. Jason, I have great concern for you. From the onset your posts have been vulgar. You have used humor that has been in very poor taste. You have made very base comments. You try to force your newly formed enthusiasm in faith over values of scouting and more importantly over the beliefs of others. It is fine that you put your faith first in your life as do many of us. But if you cannot find a balance way to be able to hold your faith and deliver the program, within the methods of scouting, then you should not have made the choice to be a scout leader. Your last personal message to me was the clincher. I'm sure had you used that language on this board you would have been barred from the site. I stress to you again, take some time to learn the program first. There is still a lot you do not know or understand about this program. Your seven years as a youth member may help you with the outdoor skill. But you are an adult leader now and the skills you need now are completely different. Yes you have lots of time to memorize the rules, but first you need to take a few hours and learn them, then take a few years and practice them. Until then consider the value of asking more questions than giving your answers.

Jason, You are welcome to your personal beliefs and Scouting encourages you to grow in your faith. But you chose to be a scout leader two weeks ago. I hope you took the time to learn what that meant. You by now have learned the Oath and Law. In that law you promise to respect the beliefs of others. In Scouting the flip side of growing in your faith is respected others whose faith may differ. If you cannot live up to that then you should rethink your ability to set the example for the scouts. In scouting we sometimes gather to celebrate our shared belief in God. We do not mention Jesus as the Son of god because not religions see Him in that way. That seem s top be a great concern for some who seem unable to celebrate God without the mention of Jesus. So I offer you this thought to reflect on. In the years that Jesus walked among us as a man he spoke often of the glory of God, and God's love for us. Did Jesus use his owm name in his lessons? Did he mention himself in order to be able to celebrate his Father? Did he only celebrate his Fathers love with those who believed in Jesus? If celebrating God without mentioning Jesus was good enough for Jesus, then I don't think He minds if we do it in Scouting as we celebrate his Father. We are not talking of official religious services, we are talking of gathering in fellowship to worship the elements in which we are common, not looking for ways to point out our differences.

Salary in the BSA is like salaries in any other corporation. they start off smaller at the bottom and bigger at the top. The exact amount depends on the candidates experience and the size and financial abilities of the council hiring them. A job posting in the Denver Area Council lists the starting salary around $33,000 Dollars. When you consider the cost of living in Denver that is not a lot of money. SE's are paid depending on the same elements. In the BSA professional service as in any other organization discussing personal income is not in the best taste. They do not ask us what we make in our professions, and I have never asked what they make.

You made it clear that a generic service which would forbid the name Jesus Christ being evoked, would not hinder your ability to worship. That is a total misrepresentation of the truth. (Did I say that with enough tact?) Please copy and paste any line where I said anything of the sort. Let's cut to the chase. You wanted me to give a BSA reference to support what I said. So I asked you to do the same. If I have to show the BSA resource for my view, then you should have to do the same. After all this is a Scouting forum. What we discuss, even on this board, should relate to Scouting. So put up Rooster. What BSA resource supports you. As a Scouter with years of experience why would you need me to point you to anything? I would hope that there is some BSA experience in there with your personal experience. Where does the BSA support your view. "When I asked - "please point me to the proper documentation," I meant every word, including the "please". " Amazing Rooster, you even misquote yourself. The context and text of what you said stated, refering to my view, that.... "This statement does not reflect the feelings of all Scouts and Scouters." followed by... " As to the BSAs intentions concerning such a service, and what constitutes a BSA sanctioned service, please point me to the proper documentation (if such a document exists). Your second total nisrepresentation. I want you to show me where I said it reflected the view of all scouts and scouters. I 'm confident it reflects the view of the BSA but I never said "all Souts and Scouters". That was not a request for help. That is a challenge to prove what I said. I accept that challenge. And I extend the same to you. You have shared several posts on your myopic often selfish ownership of what and who God is. Show us one piece of BSA information that you have come upon in your year years of Scouting experience. Otherwise show some courtesy to the fact that not everyone shares the same belief you do, and in the BSA they do not have to, are not required to, should not be expected to. As long as they share the same core belief in God all should be respected for their differences. I am sad for you that you feel you need to hear someone say the Lord's name for you to consider it worship. Many people are able to worship God in the way they respect their marriage vows, in the way they love their children, in the way they go about the day with others and never even have to hear God's name mentioned to know that they are worshipping God by their actions. We gather as Scouts and celebrate the fact that we share those values that let us show reverence (worship) God through our daily Good Deeds and Scouting ideals. If that doesn't work for you fine. You can choose not to join the celebration. but The Scout Law does not direct you to disrespect and criticize those who share that joy. I do not ask that you meet my approval. But as a Scouter it would be nice if you represented the values of scouting So do we get your BSA evidence, or your courtesy?

You made it clear that a generic service which would forbid the name Jesus Christ being evoked, would not hinder your ability to worship. That is a total misrepresentation of the truth. (Did I say that with enough tact?) Please copy and paste any line where I said anything of the sort. Let's cut to the chase. You wanted me to give a BSA reference to support what I said. So I asked you to do the same. If I have to show the BSA resource for my view, then you should have to do the same. After all this is a Scouting forum. What we discuss, even on this board, should relate to Scouting. So put up Rooster. What BSA resource supports you. As a Scouter with years of experience why would you need me to point you to anything? I would hope that there is some BSA experience in there with your personal experience. Where does the BSA support your view. "When I asked - "please point me to the proper documentation," I meant every word, including the "please". " Amazing Rooster, you even misquote yourself. The context and text of what you said stated, refering to my view, that.... "This statement does not reflect the feelings of all Scouts and Scouters." followed by... " As to the BSAs intentions concerning such a service, and what constitutes a BSA sanctioned service, please point me to the proper documentation (if such a document exists). First I never said it reflected the view of all scouts and scouters I said it reflected the view of the BSA. That was not a request for help. That is a challenge to prove what I said. I accept that challenge. And I extend the same to you. You have shared several posts on your myopic often selfish ownership of what and who God is. Show us one piece of BSA information that you have come upon in your year years of Scouting experience. Otherwise show some courtesy to the fact that not everyone shares the same belief you do, and in the BSA they do not have to, are not required to, should not be expected to. As long as they share the same core belief in God all should be respected for their differences. I am sad for you that you feel you need to hear someone say the Lord's name for you to consider it worship. Many people are able to worship God in the way they respect their marriage vows, in the way they love their children, in the way they go about the day with others and never even have to hear God's name mentioned to know that they are worshipping God by their actions. We gather as Scouts and celebrate the fact that we share those values that let us show reverence (worship) God through our daily Good Deeds and Scouting ideals. If that doesn't work for you fine. You can choose not to join the celebration. but The Scout Law does not direct you to disrespect and criticize those who share that joy. I do not ask that you meet my approval. But as a Scouter it would be nice if you represented the values of scouting So do we get your BSA evidence, or your courtesy?