Bob White

Eagle 90, Let's get the SM and the ASMS out of the count. They are program leaders, I am interested in how the administrative function of the committee is structured. So what is the count now instead of 20?

I think what you are asking them to do is not be teenagers, sriddle. What you are seeing is a natural part of their evolution from dependent child to independent adult. The Scouting program is designed to channel those characteristics. But first you have to accept them and understand that it is part of the growth stage that you went through as well, it's just that each generation chooses a diffent way to show it. Your attitude toward them is your biggest hurdle.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

It is better to focus on the positive future then the negative past. The first thing that will need to happen is that a core group of adults will need to be able to see the positive characteristics of the se scouts over the negative or no one will volunteer their time other than for their own son. You are looking for to solve a problem that even you can only see the dark side of. You would starve as a salesperson if you could not see the features and benefits of your product clearer than you can see the flaws. If you have any hopes of getting others involved you will need to change your vision of who these boys are. We know what you don't like. If you cannot be a specific with positive points about each Scout as you were with the negatives then you will not be the one able to generate the needed change. Tell us what is good about each one and what you want to see as the solution. Then we might be able to help guide you there.

One of the common elements shared often shared by healthy scout units is a healthy committee with members having specific responsibilities. If you are an adult volunteer that works with a commitee I would like to know a few things. 1) What type of scouting unit is it? 2) Do you feel you have a well functioning committee? 2) How many memebers are on it and what are their specific assignments? Thanks BW

Happy to help SRiddle, But first....I would ask you to re-post your original message only this time tell us three positive things about each boy. (no need to repost the other info.) Thanks BW

Here is how I learned when I was a cub scout (and my dad was Cubmaster), and I did this as a Cubmaster and a similar version as a Scoutmaster to teach the use of the sign. Maybe it will work for others as well. At the first pack meeting of each year we had introduced the "Thunder Stick" a brightly decorating 'Indian-like' walking stick. The cubs scouts were told that when the end of the stick is touching the floor they can yell, shout, scream, and stomp, as loud as they want. But when the stick is raised high in the air they must stop as fast as they can and be very still. "So lets practice", and we would do it 4 or 5 times. Hooting and yelling...and then silence....hooting and yelling...and then silence. (I always select a cub to come up and operate the stick.) You then explain that animals do the same thing to signal to their pack to get quiet. Wolves for instance can't hold up a stick so they hold up their ears (show the cub scout sign) (which by the way is made with the elbow straight, not bent like the Boy Scout sign). Almost in a whisper "When a wolf pack is in the forest and they hear a noise, the lead wolf puts up his ears and all the wolves around him do the same, the young ones and the old ones alike." "The wolves get very quiet, they stop whatever they are doing to look and listen." "Because that noise is very important, it could be something good to eat...or it could be something that might want to eat them." "When you see someone in our Pack put up the ears of the wolf, that means that something is going on around you that you need to pay attention to. It might be something fun to do that you want to know about, or it might be something so important it could save your life or help you save someone elses. So lets practice again. This time use the Cub Sign instead of the Thunder Stick. In Boy Scouts we teach the stalking signals and show the difference in meaning between the Cub sign and the Scout sign. And with the new scouts we practice. Holler...silencehollersilence. Its worked for me for many years. Hope this helps, BW

33% of the participants, in the Wood Badge course I am currently serving on staff for, are female. I see no difference to this point in their ability to use the methods of scouting, and to achieve the aims and mission of Scouting, as in the men. BW

I give Hops credit for being sensitive to the feelings of the family and friends of the missing scout who might have the opportunity to read the thread. Moderating this forum has got to be a little like herding cats. Hops was selected for this position by the site administrator. If Terry has a problem with any actions taken by Hops or OGE as moderators I am sure he will address it with them. We are all here voluntarily, Terry has the authority here to develop this site as he chooses. If someone has a problem with the board's operation then they should probably consider addressing that to Terry rather than criticizing a teenager in public posts. Hops, I think you did just fine. BW

Ed, if you read my post again you will see what I said was there were several different hazards there that the boy and the search teams had to deal with IF that was even the area he was lost in as the reports did not all describe the same area. Please do not make this family's tragedy just another vehicle for you to use to snipe at me.

Contact Terry, our Scouter.com forum administrator, he was a close friend of Hillcourt's.

Not at all Marlene. What I am saying is that no amount of training will make a difference if individuals do not follow through with personal action. Adults and youth alike need to understand the importance of ALL safety precautions not just ones about whistles. Leaders have to be committed to seeing that the safety measures are followed. I know a SM who had a scout die on an outing from a hiking accident. I was not there and did not press for details at the time. But going only from the description of the accident given me by the SM I can tell you that mistakes were made. If you talk to someone in the safety profession you will hear that there are no such things as accidents. There are choices made that lead to a sudden injury. We need to learn how to make better choices. We need to learn how to motivate others to make better choices. I really believe that from this tragedy many lives will be saved. Judging from some of the posts we've seen this scout will change lives. I can think of no greater legacy that a person can leave.

Seems like a better SM minute for a Roundtable, no? The Scouts already know what they want from us, its the leaders who need to understand it.

Looking at my neighborhood not enough bicyclists wear helmets. Far less than 40%. How many scouts are seriously injured or killed each year while on a scouting activity. The last figure I heard was less than 2%. Sure 0 injuries is prefered, but when you consider the activities we do with tools, water, fire, altitudes, and undergound, this is an incredibly safe program. How is this possible? Through lots and lots of training and practice BEFORE we ever do the activity scouting has benn kept extremely safe for Scouts and adults. What happened in Utah is horrible, but this was not a situation that the BSA did not warn members about, train them to avoid, publish resouces to help them train others and even included the training in the very beginning of their advancement trail. The problem, The Scout, The adult, The unit...didn't do what they were taught. At some point, no matter what you make available, the bottom line becomes individual responsibility. People make mistakes. That's what life is about, that's how we learn. Unfortunately this young man made what may turn out to be a life threatening mistake. Perhaps this will be the lesson that makes others finally learn. BW (This message has been edited by Bob White)

I also agree with the thread being closed. To voice sympathy for the Scout, his friends and family, is one thing. To sit at a PC and look at a super-miniature quad map and publicly hypothocize the many tragic ends that could have befallen this lad, and assume places the trained rescue teams missed looking at or thinking about, is IMHO very poor taste.

Check it out! Eagle is (to coin a phrase) right on the money.

Marlene, the BSA does teach outdoor safety including carrying a whistle, personal first aid kit, water and other esentials with you. But it is up to the unit leaders to see that it is taught to scouts and up to the scouts and all the leaders to see that it is practiced. Is a national program the answer? There was a national program for years on littering, does anyone litter? There has been a national program for decades to prevent forest fires, do we still have forest fires? Does everyone wear seat belts? Scouting is a national outdoor safety program in itself. What is needed is for EVERYONE to do their part to teach, learn, and practice the skills of scouting. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Sounds to me like you have everything in perspective.

E. Your situation brings two things to mind. The first...Storming, Forming, Norming, Performing. (You know the source) The second "if life was meant to be perfect, pencils wouldn't have erasers." This from my grandfather who thought himself quite the philosopher, but then every once in while he thought he was a Frigidaire Refrigerator/Freezer too (the side by side model not the over and under). Usually in Harvest Gold. Hope this helps, BW

If you look in the early handbooks, even in Baden Powell's Scouting for Boys (I believe this is in there), they teach silent signals for stalking. The arm held up at a right angle, palm open and fingers poiting up was the signal to STOP and be quiet. Powell added to that the three fingers of the scout sign that reprsent the three parts of the Scout Law, as a silent symbol for the scouts to stop what they were doing and listen. Notice this is a silent signal and should not be acompanied by a "shssh" or a battle cry of "Sign's Up"

I agree that for rounded development boys need male role models in their lives. However, in a a troop with all female leaders this is still possible. One of the methods of scouting is Association with Adults, and there are many opportunities for scouts to meet with and, learn from , and emmulate, positive male adult role models. Through skill presentations, merit badges, service projects, boards of review, and other venues, the Scouts have ample opportunities beyond their own unit leaders to meet male role models. So the gender of the unit leader is not as important as their ability to use the methods of scouting. BW

If the SPL and the PLC want to win the camporee then let them. If the SPL and the PLC don't care about the camporee then let them do something else. If the adult leaders really really have it in their haerts to win this, have them form a patrol and see it the camporee will let them enter. Otherwise they should let it go.

Let's make in clear that no called anyone dumb, stupid or any other derogatory name, and that no such thing was inferred. A simple reminder was given that we should not assume everyone is a friend simply beause they post on a scout board. Even if you do not give out a boy's address you will no doubt give your own, and where and when the den meets will likely creep into a conversation. And the boys will sign their names right? Those bits of information can be assembled to give a stranger an awful lot of information. I just shared a word of advice. No one was accused of anything, but better safe than sorry.

Here is the link for the north end of the Mirror Lake quad. http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?z=12&n=4506351&e=509558&s=100&size=m&u=7&datum=nad83&layer=DRG25I apologize for the misdirection, I meant to say it is SOUTH of the area identified by le Voyageur. But this is the area identified in the news article. As you can see there is a scout camp nearby on Scout Lake. If the group was fishing Pool Lake, which could be one of the samll un-named lakes between Mirror and the scout camp there are a number of directions he could have gone and bcome lost or endangered. Notice that he may have needed to cross a highway. He also traveled near a swamp. Not to mention if he simply became disoriented and traveled ln the wrong direction. Without greater detail such as his exact location when he left, his initial direction of travel and the period of time he was gone before the search began, it would be difficult to judge his possible whereabouts from our positions at home. I have to trust that the experts on the scene have the needed information, and are doing there best to recover the young boy. God Speed. BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

As far as I know only Cub Scouts are totally restricted. Boy Scouts with the needed training and physical abilities for the specific activity are allowed regardless of age.

The scout was walking away from the water because he had walked into the lake and gotten wet, and was heading back to his campsite to change into dry clothing.