Bob White

You are assuming that the adult leader disn't do his or her responsiblility. That is different than the scout not doing his. The question here was 'what is the requirement' , and the requirement is quite clear that for the scout to have completed it he must actively serve in the position and not just hold the office.

Doc Things change. You need to realize that a number of scouters, and posters on this forum, have not yet been on staff for Wood Badge for the 21st Centrury OR went through staff in the previous version of Wood Badge. There is a big difference. In the past there was definitely a belief, wether written or past down throug the ages, that the lessons of Wood Badge should not be taught outside of Wood Badge. That myth is disspelled with Wood Badge for the 21st Century. Nothing in the course training or documentaion suggests that these lessons are to be concealed. In fact just the opposite, The whole idea of having well trained leaders is to have them train others in good program and leadership pratcices. Even on this forum , nmany aspects and lessons opf Wood Badge have been discussed in great deatail. Empathetic communication, group dynamics, planning, evaluation, coaching and mentoring, EDGE, Tickets, and other aspects of Wood Badge have all been openly discussed on this forum. There are far more posts on the public side of the OA forum then on the pricate side. that does not make the information secret just member specific, it is no different than most units that have a public side to their web site and a member specific side. I will tell you what is interesting to me about the Game of Life. I will bet that anyone on staff that has been in scouting for a while can spot who will be the cause of any conflict during the game. If anything the game helps them to understand themselves better. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Liz The leaders in the troop you serve do not understand how positive reinforcement works. To be effective it must immediately follow the behavior you are trying to reinforce. Advancement is a Method used to affect a scouts emotional fitness. Waiting weeks or months after the action to get the reward is ineffective. It may be convenient for the adults but it does nothing for the scout or for the the effectiveness of the program you are trying to deliver. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

GW Just as your belief that a boy Scout aged youth urinating in someones water bottle is not a cute prank, your understand that to Actively serve in a leadership roile is identical to being active in the unit are the same thing is wrong and unsupported by anything in the BSa program. But then you already new that.

Docrwm Please correct me if I have misread something, but I do not find what Beavah has said you said in any of the posts in the thread he has referenced. Is the premise of this thread not true, or did I miss something? And why would anyone need to "confess" that they are a new commissioner is it a state of sin that requires penance and forgiveness?

There is nothing in the current BSA literature that contradicts what you have posted Click. In fact it supports it.

It is very possible and highly likely that the Bolingbroke was reprimanded by the council leadership after this was published. It is improper for a volunteer to use the name of scouting to support politial issues or a specific party or candidate. We will likley never know because it would be a confidential matter and wopuld probably not be publicized.

Even when I was that young I knew the differnce between stupid and malicious. I can only attribute it to better parenting.

That probably depended mostly on the community. If my town ever did that is was prior to the 1950's. In the troop I was a Scout in during the 60's we did large Courts of Honor with the parents and familes present usually only once a year.

Where you are are misusing the Program Highcountry is when yo want to witholfd advancemenrt for peeing on a tent or peeing in someone's water bottle when instead you should be removing their membership. Why is a boy who has pee's in someone's water bottle still an active member of the troop? This is not an advancement issue it is a membership issue. What exactly would it take in the program you lead to realize that this is not an advancement issue but a heallth and safety issue as well as a behavioral issue?

Where you are are misusing the advancement program Highcountry is when you want to withold advancement for peeing on a tent or peeing in someone's water bottle when instead you should be removing their membership. Why is a boy who has pees in someone's water bottle still an active member of the troop? This is not an advancement issue it is a membership issue. What exactly would it take in the program you lead to realize that this is a heallth and safety issue as well as a behavioral issue?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Beavah Having an entire post about your opinion of another poster individual does not support your knowledge on the BSA or prove the content of the program. In addition, to suggest that I am from Peoria, IL is innaccurate, and to attenpt to post personal information on people on the internet is improper and borders on the illegal (see the cyberstalking and Internet harrassment laws that many states have adopted). I would hope that the moderators on this forum would closely moniter such poor ettiquette and unscout-like behavior. To suggest that a person's knowledge of scouting can be determined by a current position with disregard to their total history, training, and experience, is misleading and mistaken. If you have factual knowledge of the topic of this thread your time would have been better spent sharing the official resources that you have found that would contradict any of factual material already shared. Again your attempts to try and support your opinions merely by attacking me personally only emphasizes the lack of evidence you have to factually support your opinion on this and other topics, where you have employed the same strategy. This is just another smoke screen you often use to cloud the actual issues of the threads and to distract fron the information readily found in current offical BSA resources. I hope the moderators join me in hoping you will confine your posts to the topic of the thread, rather than your personal opinions of other posters or in trying to expose personal information about them.

BadenP You cannot agree with me and disagree with Doc as we have said the same thing and we both find inaccuracies in your posts. When I post I give the BSA references to back it up as did Doc, if others want to accett the BSA program as the authority on the BSA then good for them, As a former BSA professional for a few years I cannot understand why that should bother you, but it obviously does. I never said that the Commissioners were the BSA police, In fact if you read tmy posts you will see how I specifically said that was a poor representation of their role. So why you continue to belabor a point that was not mine is a mystery. Well sort of a mystery.

I believe Highcountry's misub=nderstanding of the BSA's Boy Scout advancement program is summed in what he wrote ehn he posted "I have a couple scouts that I am anticipating will come to me for SM conferences soon that do not deserve a move up in rank" The fact is no one has asked or instructed him to make a subjective determination of who "deserves" to earn a rank. The BSA determines thrugh the official requirements who has "earned" a Rank. The Scoutmasters's role is to see that learning, practice, and testing take place correctly before the each individual requirement is approved. If a scout has not done the work according to the requirements of the BSa then all parties involved need to by asking the Scoutmaster why he or she did not manage the advancement program correctly. There is no requirements in scouting that the unit leaader must determine that the scout "deserves" the rank, the Scout has either earned it according to the BSa requirements or he has not, and that decision is the responsibility of the Troop Committee during the board of review. The problem here is not that with program, the problem is that leaders who have the approach and opinion shared by Highcountry do not understnad what the program is. Nothing in the BSA advancement Method says that a Scout who does not have the skills or spirit should advance. It says that making sure that the scout has the skills BEFORE the requirement is accepted as being completed is the responsibility of the Scoutmaster. If a iunit has scoputs who are advanceing without the skills they are suppossed to have then you need to be looking at the Scoutmaster for the solution because that is where the problem is.

Immediate recognition has ALWAYS been a part of the BSA advancement and recognition program. What has changed is how court of honors are done. Having them as quarterly events is relatively recent in the history of the BSA. Courts used to be held as part of a troop meeting's opening or closing ceremonies for a scout or scouts who had completed their board of review or earned a merit badge or other recognition. As a Scout in a large troop in the lates 60s it was not unusual for my troop to have a court 2 or 3 times a month. The process has always been to get the recognition on the scout ASAP. preferably by the next troop meeting. Court of Honors changed in the early eighties to be a quarterly event as they are recommended to be today, but getting the badge as soon as possible, preferable at the next meeting has not changed. BSA scout leaderf training has always stressed this point. Sorry to disagree with Eagle92, but if his name is accurate as to when he received his Eagle Rank then he is far too young to consider himself a scouting dinosaur.

The fact that the Commissioner is registered through the council does not alter the fact that their role is to support the program, policies and procedures of the BSA. Much of what BadenP posts is merely to try and attack whetever I post, it is a hobby that he and only a couple of other posters spend too mush of their time at, it is unfortunate but that is the case. You will note that with the abundance of official BSA references readily available to him he does not support his opinions by using any of them. DocRwm is correct in his posting on the matter and he uses current, and correct, references to support the facts.

Doc, How do you see this as secretive? The BSA does not say that it cannot be talked about, and there are lots of people willing to discuss it? how then could it possibly be secretive? OGE's decision not to allow it on the forum is personal choice that he feels is a the resonable decision for the forum and he has been given the responsibility and authorioty to make that decision. But neither the forum nor OGE speak for the BSA but only for this forum. Please explain how you see this as being secretive in the BSA. PS The name of the game is "The Game of Life" the goal of the game is to 'win all you can'.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

There is far more to the handbook than just the pages that list the requirement. the majority of the handbbok explains the requirements and how to do the skills you are tested on. The passages shared by OGE from the Boy Scout Handbook do just that. There is only one requiremement that the program says should be approved by the Scoutmaster and that is the Scoutmaser Conference. For all other requirements they (excluding merit badges) they can be tested and approved by whomever the Scoutmaster approves. In the case of Scout Spirit, the BSA says that it is unique from all other requirements and is best determined by the Scout himself. I meet a lot of Scout leader all over the country nearly every year. No where bu on ths forum do I meet so many who work so hard to NOT follow the program elements of the BSA.

How often is the recommended selection process used? Not often enough. Which is why so many units have leaders who did not want to be leaders and doing things they have no aptitude or attitude to do successfully. It is why so many leaders leave within three years and why so many units do not have enough adult leadership to properly deliver the Scouting program.

There is no secrecy to this, Nothing in the BSA or in the Wood Badge training syllabus says that you have to keep anything secret. The lesson of the game can be taught without the game only not as effectively. If you want someone to teach you all the Wood Badge Skills, I would be happy to do it. When I have done this at a corporate level we charged $1200 per person for the 16 hour course. If you want to PM me I will send you the address where to send the check to Or if you want to PM me and discuss the game off-line I would be happy to do that for free. The only reason we are dancing around the topic here is that a monderator has made it clear that he will close the thread if we discuss the game itself. This is his personal choice and he has the authority to make that decision on this forum. So in keeping within his rules I will not discuss details on this forum.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Scouter760 There is nothing to "expose". This excercise has been in the Wood Badge course since it's release and has been played hundreds of times now. The element in some people that causes whatever conflict may take place came to the course with those particular people, it was not created by the game.

The NSP gives you two options. The p[atrol can stay together as an experienced patrol, or they can be placed into already existing experienced patrols upon reaching First Class. If you are doing the former then The patrol leader now becomes responsible for seeing that the the scouts in his patrol are advanceing. If you use the latter then the scouts remian in the NSP until they get to First Class, at which time they can move to an experienced Patrol.

If your goal is to follow the BSA program...There is no specified person that arranges for the board of review. Keep in mind that you do not have to wait for a scout to be ready to advance for him to go before a board. Since the Scotmaster is in charge of the advancement program in a troop it is common for the Scoutmaster and the advancement chair to arrange for boards. The recommended method is that boards meet regularly and frequently throught the year. There is no requirement that the Committee Chair sit on a board. It must be 3 to 5 unit committee members from that unit, but they are not frequired to be any specific committee person. It is not uncommon for the Advancement Chair to chair the board of review, The procedures given in the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual is that the Scoutmaster, Advisor, or Skipper introduce the scout, and then only the Scoutmaster, Advisor, or Skipper can observe the board. They cannot ask questions but can clarify points for the board if asked a question. (This process is totally different in a Sea Scout Ship when working on Sea Scout Ranks) The board is recorded once the scout is approved for advancement to the rank. Again, all this is only relevant if your goal is to follow the BSA program.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I respectfully disagree with Neil, The game of Life/Win all U can is not about causing conflict. And while aspects of the stagesof group dynamics are visible in the game, You can see aspects of group dynamics in almost every aspect of the Wood Badge course as it progresses. The lesson of the the Game of Life is much different than what MacScouter believed it was.

"they have a say" is kind of an ambiguous term. If you mean that the steering committee has input, then yes you are correct. If however you mean that they have any degree of authority, then no that would be incorrect. Their role would be purely advisory. The SE would have no authority to veto any action by a unit committee unless it was in violation of a BSA policy or regulation. In actuality if the committee functions as designed and taught by the BSA there is little opportunity for a committee "action". The role of the committee is simply to carry out the tasks assigned to them by the Committee Chair who would be acting in support of the needs of the Scoutmaster and the charter organization.(This message has been edited by Bob White)