Bob White

Sorry Unc I gotta back Summit on this. I have Scout-o-rama collectibles going back to the 1950's they did indeed become Scout Shows. Show-and-Do is a different animal alltogether. They morphed into All Out for Scouting and then into the University of Scouting. Show-and-Do was an adult leader training program (sometimes junior leaders were invited). In one of the more common formats leaders would view skills during the first half of the day and then compete in contests as patrols the second half while applying the new skills they had learned. In the 70s and early 80s participation at a Show-and-Do was required to earn the Scouters Training Award. Hope this helps. BW

johndaigler, Eamonn asked for our personal feelings or feelings as what makes for quality leadership as opposed to just a leader. I shared my opinion. Disagree with my opinion if you wish but I do not see how that gives you the right to attack me personally. As others have pointed out there are leaders who basically "phone it in", others who take the training but never take the time to learn what was shared with them, and never practice or apply it. They wear the uniform, they dress the part. The quality leaders I have seen and know, and by the way they outnumber the others, don't just dress like leaders...they lead. This isn't a condemnation of volunteers trying to do their best it is a condemnation of those who don't. Will this opinion strike some very personally? Maybe it will. Maybe enough to get them to take and use the available training. Maybe it will upset them enough to do their job or make room for someone who will. Either way the boys win, and isn't that the goal? Happy Scouting Bob White

As you have correctly pointed out M-4 is in regards to intruders, which this parent was not. M-5 as you corectly pointed out has to do with non-custodial parents, which this parent was not. Two fine policies, neither of which apply,except that both put the responsibility for having a plan in place into the hands of the council. So when Dave asked if national had a plan in place and what was it, the answer is that the responsibility for having a plan is left with the local council. So Dave's local council is in far better position to tell him what their plan is then we are. Is that not correct? It's not that I don't want to help Dave, but he wants details from national on something national doesn't have. It's like asking us on this forum what his council service center office hours are. He is in much better position to know that then we are. Heck we don't even know what council he is in and he wants us to tell him his council's unique plan. I just don't know how we are supposed to know that.

My perspective on the difference between a scout leader and a quality scout leader is the difference between a horse, and somebody who is dressed up like a horse. Signing the application and going to the meetings makes you a scout leader, but only superficially. A quality leader takes time to learn the program, time to understand it's methods, aims, and mission. And then spends time applying those skills. BW

Just to make sure I got this right cjmiam, your post when summarized says exactly what everyone else has said to Dave, that there is no national policy regarding the response of the camp director in this specific situation, it would beup to each local council to have a plan. Isn't that correct?

Bill, While the CO has the authority to require the uniform for membership if they choose to, no one other than the national executive committee can determine advancement requirements. By making a complete uniform graounds for passing the SM conference you have violated the advancement policies of the Boy Scouts of America. You do not have the authority to set such a rule. Any scout appealing your action to the council advancement comitte would be advanced. Since you see your role as one of enforcing the rules. But let's enforce the right ones. You cannot add to or subtract from the advancement requirements set by the BSA and found in the Scout Handbook.

Not an indictment, a different perspective. You do not need any amount of monety to teach values. The methods aims and mission of scouting are not dependent on having any kind of financial support. There have over 160,000,000 members of the BSA. The resouces needed by units to have what they need to deliver the promise of scouting is available to comminities and units in need. The fact that some leaders haven't found them yet does not mean they aren't there OR that they should give up looking for it. There is nothing wrong with a boy to not having a complete uniform YET. But there is a problem when leaders stop working toward the use of the uniform method as a tool to teach scouting. If you are a scout leader in a depressed area you must have known the challenges you would face going into it. That doesn't preclude you from using the methods of scouting since they are not based on income. My point is that challenges exist in all communities, get past the "we can't do all the methods because of_________(fill in the blank). The methods of scouting are not bought, they are things we do as leaders in the BSA they are actions and philosophies not stuff you buy.

Twocubdad, Please, let's not change the subject of this thread. If you wish to start a new subject it is easy enough to select the new topic button and do so. That is the purpose of having separate threads and not just one big bulletin board. I disagree with your point and would be happy to counter your argument. Please be courteous and start a new thread. Ed, Please stop misrepresenting what I have said. If you wish to quote me the board features allow you to do so. You can even link to the post so that everyone can see it in the context it was written. Your posts are again becoming more about your dislike for me, and less about the topic at hand. I would hope that recent actions taken by the board administration towards other posters would have given you a clue. I would recommend you get over your personal vendetta. BW

Mollie, It has nothing to do with getting more resgistration fees. We are only talking about a few dollars difference on two or three boys, and besides that none of the resgistration money stays in the council. 100% of it goes to Irving, Texas and the majority of it goes into the liability protection fund. So NO ONE profits from registration.

Unless your are the committee chair or the COR this is not your problem..is it? If you are one of these two you can simply replace them with someone who will do as you ask.

I caution you against the word "impossible" since many low income areas have sucessful scouting programs, it has already been proven possible. Difficult perhaps, but good scouting is just as difficult to do in wealthy neighborhoods. I have had to find leaders in both and they can be equally challenging. "But in thses special needs units the social and economic circumstances of the units and neighborhoods directly affect the quality of the adult leadership." No at all. It may effect the population density of such leadership, but not the quality. In any population the highest quality leaders are the rarest to find. Again no one said the units would look exatly like those in higher income neighborhoods only that leadership is what makes the difference not income.

BP wrote "I am glad to hear that you do not believe that wearing a complete uniform is a requirement of a good scout program because I feel those are seperate issues in poor areas." First Uniforming has NOTHING to do with this discussion. Second, be careful to correctly represent my view. I believe uniforming is an element of a good scouting program, and that the uniform method needs to be understood and used in order to be the best leader possible for the scouts you serve. Third, the whole point I (and others) have been trying to make is that income and the uniform method have nothing to do with each other. Good scouting and income have nothing to do with each other. Proper use of the methods of scouting and the ability to accomplish the mission of scouting are not linked to wealth or poverty. They are the results of good leadership. Uniforming is not an element of this discussion. I am simply looking for someone to give me a solid argument as to why quality unit scouting requires that the members be from a certain social or economic level. Assuming that aurgument cannot be made, then one must look at how any method of scouting is not viable in any social or economic setting. You cannot it both ways. If good scouting is what it is based on its methods, and good scouting can be accomplished in any setting, then so can all the methods of scouting.

cajuncody wrote "but I just couldn't sit by and let someone say that EVERYONE should be in uniform regardless of money." I gotta tell ya, I can't find it. I have re-read every post and if it's there I missed it. Who said that besides cajuncody and where is it said?

BP I'm not sure we are disagreeing. Have I at any point said that a boy MUST be in a complete uniform in order to be a good scout? Did I say that a unit SHOULD make uniforms mandatory, or that YOU must demand the troop you serve to be in a complete uniform? You are not reading what I'm writing, only what you expect to see written. You and cajun have not proven that uniforming is impossible, only that what you have done so far did not get the results hoped for...or did it. Did you set out to fully uniform every scout or was your goal to prove it couldn't be done? If it was the former then why give up. Why not look for a different solution? I think what your scouts have accomplished is terriffic. Now let me ask. How could they do these things living in a low income area? If it wasn't money that made it possible then what was it? Perhaps through leadership? And isn't that what I said made the difference?

Thinking is a good thing Ed, especially if it leads to understanding. I hope you can understand that while there is one program, and one set of methods in the Boy Scout level, there are a variety of leaders responsible for delivering the program. Their ability will determine how well the program is followed and implemented. Different units under different leadership will be different in their ability to fulfill the mission of the BSA. But the point of this thread is that it is the ability of the leader that will make the difference NOT the social or economic make-up of the community. I am sure we have all seen this in our own communities, where more than one unit exists. Often times some units flourish while others whither a slow lingering demise. They share the same economy and social level. That have access to the same scouting resources and training. The difference between them, the quality of the adult leadership. It is not money that makes a good unit program. Money can only make it easier but you still have to know what your doing as a leader. It's the quality of the people that make the difference. Bad leaders with lots of money do not get better results than good leaders with little or no money. It's leadership that delivers scouting at the unit level not income. I hope this helps you to understand.

We outfitted one troop of twelve scouts in les than a month for about $8 per scout by having a mom who liked to go to garage sales buy all the scout uniforms she could find. She also went to the local resale shops and explained what we were doing and they set all the uniforms that came in aside for us. To pay for the patches we went to a local rotary club and explained our situation and they gave us the funds we needed. Request at Roundtable got us all the cook gear. There are resources in your community. Of you can't find them in a twen mile radius look 15. If they are not there look 20. The solution is just a short reach further than your excuses will stetch.

I have purposely left race out of this because I believe it has no additional impact on the topic. The real question is can an effective scouting program be delivered to a community regardless of its economic and social make-up? I will keep my argument simple. Based on my personal experiences organizing units in a variety of economic neighborhoods, the answer is yes. Will the programs be identical? No, but do not assume that means that the program with more money is better. The way to judge any scouting program is by its ability to achieve the aims and mission of scouting, not by it's bank account, the number of Eagle scouts churned out, or by where it goes camping. The ability of a scout unit to achieve its mission is based on one thing, and one thing only. The quality of it's adult leaders. The world and its history is filled with examples of people who had strong character and values, but little or no money. I welcome anyone's argument that can prove the contrary.

WHOA! Runaway train of thoughts! Let's stay on the same topics. The question asked was how can a CO insist on uniforms. The answer is quite easily, they simply tell everyone that to be a member of that unit they are required to wear a uniform. What about a unit in an impoverished community? Well that would be a pretty silly rule for the unit to make up wouldn't it? No one said every unit should do this. No one said every scout HAD to be in a complete uniform. What was said was that as a leader using the uniform method you cannot tell them NOT to. "A boy can't wear a uniform unless he can afford one." That's ridiculous. "Its not always possible to afford uniforms". I can't agree with that because my own experience tells me otherwise. I have organized numerous troops and packs in low income communities and they always had uniforms. And they were excited to wear them. All it takes is leadership and a plan. That's what the methods of scouting are about. There are loads of places to get uniforms, other than new of the store shelf, and there are lots of ways to get money to by them, and there are loads of things the boys can do to earn them, and they are not locked in a walled community, there are other places to go to earn the money. These are the kind of areas where the values of scouting can do the greatest good and you shackle yourselves with "can'ts", and "won'ts" and "don'ts". Whatever happen to "how can we", rather than "we can't"? "How can we encourage them", rather than "they won't"? Forget what won't work and think about what might, and then do it. Find sponsors, sell stuff outside the neighborhood, start a uniform exchange with another unit. Contact your church, send requests to resale shops. You have a computer get on e-bay. Explain to the parents the purpose of the uniform and ask that they consider uniform parts for birthday and holiday gifts. Talk to your Scout Reach executive about funds that may be available in your community. There's 8 ways to do it, compared to 100 excuses you could come up with as to why you can't. Which attitude do you want to teach to the scouts? The uniform method, like the other methods of scouting is dependent on your leadership, not the income of the scout.

And I guess I have a different vantage point to offer. If the principal wants it to look professional he should hire professionals. If he wants it to look like a skilled amateurs did it then he should have asked you if anyone in the group had experience in this. But he asked a second grade cub scout den. He should expect second grade work. When my son did a project for for in second grade no one was brought it to "make it nice". I see nothing foolish in the work of a second grader, I just see second grader work. If the principal expected something more he should not have presented this as a den project. Or at the very least he should be up-front with his expectations just as you should be up-front that you intend this to be the boys project if in fact he wants the pack to do it. The real point I am getting at is, he has every right to ask his pack for a service project, but he should be smart enough to ask you to do a project that is appropriate for the age group you serve.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

16 as a senior wasn't that big a deal. I was 17 when I started college.

There seems to be an overwhelming misunderstanding of the Uniform Method in this discussion. The methods of scouting are how we as adult leaders deliver the scouting program, NOT about the scouts themselves. The scout uniform is a teaching tool for the adult not a punishment for the scout. A leader who develops team and individual member's pride through the use of the uniform as a way to show belonging and a sense of accomplishment through the uniform is following the program, regardless of how many pieces of the uniform the scout owns. A Leader who instills an understanding of personal grooming, through the use of uniform is following the program regardless of how many pieces of the uniform a scout owns. A leader who looks for alternative sources of uniforma parts with the goal of every scout being able to be equal in appearance is following the program, regardless of what stage of uniforming the scouts are in at the moment. A leader who misrepresents their authority by telling ANYONE that they do not have to follow the program and can wear whatever pants they want...is NOT following the program. The goal here is to eventually have a scout in a complete uniform so that they can benefit from the lessons we teach and the characteristics we support through the uniform. Just like any other method of scouting, the uniform method is way we teach scouting, it is not dependent on income, it depends on the adults to understand and use the method. If a unit's Charter organization wishes to make complete uniforms mandatory for membership in THEIR unit, they are free to do so. But there are better ways to deliver scouting than through mandates withing the unit.

This is nothing new. I started first grade at age 6, and that was several years ago. If your birthday is in the Fall (as mine is) you began first grade as a six year old. I started cubs in second grade (there were no Tigers then). Although I would have been 7 when I started second grade I turned 8 in November(pack meeting was canceled due to Kennedy's assasination that day) so I had to wait until the December meeting to join. So it is very feasible to have 7 year old Wolves at this time of year. If they have a birthday between now and The end of February they will cross to Webelos at 11 years of age.

The director of the Venturing Division at National came to our council and did an orientation on the Venturing program for us.

When using the Venturing salute the thumb is held away from the index finger in a relaxed manner to form the "V" for Venturing. BW

"but now if you go strickly by the book, the boys will be in the Tan uniform before they bridge." That depends on which book you are reading. If it is a BSA manual then that is not correct. The BSA allows the scout to make the choice and purchase the tan uniform as a Webelos, or wait until he joins Boy Scouts.