Bob White

(sorry it was late, let me try again without typos:)) Its really a decision left to the Scoutmaster. It should be less about the task, and selected based on the development needs of the individual Scout. The idea is not to give him busy-work because he doesn't have a leadership role, but to give him a task that will help to utilize an existing strength or to strengthen a leadership weakness of that particular Scout. So without knowing your son's needs and characteristics it would be difficult for us to determine what project would serve his development the best. BW

Show-and-Do was more a training event then a training course, in thast there were not set learning objectives or specific skills to present. The program elements were largely left to the council to determine on its own. The information packet was more a sample pack of suggested formats and agendas.

Its really a decision left to the Scoutmaster. It should be less about the taske and selected more based on the development needs of the individual scout. The idea is not to give him busy-work since he doesn't have a leadership role, but to give him a task that will help to utilize an existing strength or to strengthen a leadership weakness of that particular scout. So with knowing your sons needs and characteristics it would be dificult to determine what project would serve his development the best. BW

First the bullying needs to stop. Everyone who is involved needs to be made aware of the the fact that bullying anyone is unaccetable and will be dealt with according to the policies of the Guide to Safe Scouting up to and including expulsion from the unit. Then they need some training in understand the diversity of the characteristics of the boys in the troop and how to better handle their actions and reactions to this scout. You have already begun the next step, you need to pair this scout up with an adult or older scout to be with him all the time. Keep instructions simple, let him focus on one thing at a time, keep rewards frequent and specific. "I like the way you ......., and that's what I want to see you do each time that happens". Talk to your family doctor or the scholl counselor to get more tips on dealing with severly ADHD children. Good Luck Thanks for hanging in there with this young man, BW

I think it short changes the boys.

Eagle I would suggest a calm conversation, one-on-one with the CC over a slice of pie and a cup of coffee at a local restaurant. Say to the CC, "here is what I am trying to do, here is what I am willing to do to get there. What do you want". Then listen, really listen, don't say a word until he finishes with everything he has to say. Once he is done ask yourself, does it follow the program, can we make it work, can we negotiate some middle ground. If you cannot then you need to shake hands and say "you selected the wrong person, I want to give the boys a scouting program and that means we train them, we trust them, and we let them lead. If that is not what you want then you need to get someone else. Thank you for the opportunity. If you change your mind, let me know." Remind yourself you did the best job you could. Hopefully that is not what will happen. What I hope will hapen is you will find the common ground you need to serve the scouts. But that will be up to the two of you. I wish you luck. By the way which of you have taken Leader training and which has not? (This message has been edited by Bob White)

So cjmiam, you don't think if we had better teachers it would have an effect on the quality of education? "So an untrained leader can never be a quality leader? And a Scout troop can never have a quality program if they dont have a trained leader?" That can't possibly be a new concept, can it? You mean to be a teacher you have to go to school? To be a firefighter you have to take training? To work in any job you have to get learn how to do the job? Who would of thunk? "Id really like to get this straight, because the next time one of my Scouts guilty of unbecoming a product of the aims and methods of Scouting I want to know who to blame. If you have never attended training, or have and don't use the skills you were taught, then the first person to blame is in your mirror. BW

Hi mommaspence, welcome to the scouting fold. Here is a good place to start. http://www.scouting.org/cubscouts/faststart/ This brief on-line training from the BSA will be agood orientation for you. You didn't mention what age group this was. Assuming you have joined as Tigers, you will need a Tiger Cub Handbook for yourself (since you are the Den Leader) as well as your son the How To Book and lots of glue, scissors, glitter, cardboard boxes, film canisters and the like As soon as possible attend the two hour New Leader Essentials Course and the three-hour Tiger Den Leader Specific Training in your area. Your Cumaster can find out when they will be. There is also a Cub Scout Leader Handbook that you will find very helpful,t your pack should supply you with one(be sure to ask about it). Next find forty-minutes to sit at your computer and take Youth Protection training. You will find a link to the on-line course at your local council website. Get the tools and go have fun. Call anytime you need us. Happy Scouting Bob White

There are dozens of great reasons to join Boy Scouts and each person no doubt has their own. But there are only 8 specific methods of the Boy Scout program and they are the same nationwide. High adventure is not one of them. Overselling, is selling past the point that the customer has said yes to your product. I don't hear that from the posters I have responded to. BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

WOW lots of good questions. Pull a log up to the fire and lets share. "How about a Scout Executive who sets his own membership requirements for new units and refuses to accept your application for a new Venture crew, even though it meets the published standards? Lets stick to the topic, "program quality" we can do conflict resolution another time. While the CR is working with the SE what kind of program is being delivered to the Scouts. thats what we are talking about. "If you do not believe that having an organization willing to sponsor a unit is at least as important as quality leaders, I cannot help you.' None needed at the moment, thank you though. I gave you a unit with a charter as well as other conditions which you chose, but without quality leadership. Was it a quality scouting program? you never answered. "By golly by gosh, I knew our BSA training is pretty fantastic, but I never imagined that it would be responsible for training the quality leaders that would find the cure for cancer, A.I.D.S. and world hunger. Someone needs to get this to the A.P. ASAP B.W. Finds Cure to Fix all Problems: Quality Leaders" And there no doubt is the wall that separates us in how we view this topic. Scout Leader training and the program resources of the BSA, as good as they are were never designed to cure cancer or AIDS. They were designed to deliver a Quality Program and when leaders learn and apply those skills that is exactly the results. I am not the one who discovered this. That credit goes to the likes of Baden-Powell, and William Hillcourt as well as the volonteer trainers all across the country working to have 100% trained leaders. Why? Because we know that is what will have the greatest benefit for the youth scouting serves. "By the way Bob, Im just curious which came first the quality leader or the people that trained them?" Easy... The quality program came first, then the leaders who learned how to do it, then the leaders who learned from them. "Just look at the movie "Follow me Boys", old Lem Siddons never received any training but did alright by his troops, he didn't even have an ASM. What do you think Bob was that a quality scout program? It sure wasn't by the book, lol. As you probably know it was based on a true story." Follow Me Boys is a fun movie, but let's not forget it's a movie. We have our hands full dealing with real life. If I thought that our discussion would alter the film in anyway we could talk about it. "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? Guys, I think you are going off the deep end. If you state that the definintion of a quality leader is one who creates a quality program then yes, no argument, a quality leader is needed. Close, what I am proposing isn't that "definition" of a quality leader is one who creates a quality program, but that the result of quality leadership is a quality program. The definition of a quality leader is one who is has taken training, learned the methods and apply them to achieve the aims and mission of scouting. Every Boy Deserves a Trained Leader.-Baden-Powell

See how easy is to learn new things? You should also tell the scouts not to get in his car and explain the danger to them, explain to them that if he leaves you are required by law to report him to the police and to the Scouing office. You are there to protect the scouts, not the irresponsible adult. If he wants to endanger his own life or his son's you have no other LEGAL recourse than to follow the procedures outlined in Youth Protection. Again, this is why training is so important.

I have no idea what you are talking about Scoutnut, could you elaborate? What you call Bear Paw, national calls JLT (Junior Leader Training) and they allow local councils to market it under whatever name they want. But Show-and-Do was an Adult training course that some councils allowed junior leaders to attend. They did not get training credit it was just fun for them to do with the leaders. As far as national not offering it, not everything done in councils and districts must come from national. But if you are doing a national program then you have an obligation to follow the national materials that apply to it.

Not true. Good leadership would have a plan in place as to who would be selected to fill in the responsibilities of a leader that left under any circumstance. So even death would not have to harm a program that had quality leadership. Creative attempt though.

Remember Spiney the BOR is to made up of 3 to 5 members of the troop committee only. For Tenderfoot you need to keep it simple. This is the scouts first board. First learn about the Scout. where does he go to school, whats his favorit topic, who is his favorite teacher and why? How is the homework coming. Tell us about your family, your pets, your hobies. Ask a few questions based on the requirements. What meal did he cook and how dis it taste. What knots did he learn so far, has he had a chance to use them and how? How is liking scouting? how can the troop improve? When does he plan to complete his next rank? What is he doing now to meet that goal. Good Luck BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

GREAT! Now let me ask this if you cannot name any program elements in any combination that can substitute for quality leadership....can you name any program problems that quality leadership cannot overcome?

"No, I was referring to the case of the fatigued driver, an individual who is statistically as dangerous as a drunk driver. In most places, this itself is not a crime." I believe if you check with the traffic laws you will find that it is. It is consider driving while impaired. "but do we use our other means of confrontation to respond to the situation? No. And that is one of the often repeated points in Youth Protection training. It is stressed over, and over, and over again "Your job is to 'recognize' and 'report'" period. Failure to do so in most states can expose you to criminal and civil charges. This is why training is SO important. This information has been offered in every council for over twenty years and is now available on line in every council in the country. Every registered leader should know these rules.

"Without a charter we dont have a unit or a program. Another element that Id say is paramount is having a safe meeting environment. If the unit has no place to meet that is safe the program would not be able to run. Of course as you stated, the unit leader. And finally the most obvious that affects the quality of a program is whether it has any Scouts. Its kinda difficult to run a quality program with no boys. I think the minimum to start a unit is five" Okay then cjmiam lets test your conditions and see if we have a quality program. I have five scouts, and two untrained adults sitting in the middle of new gymnasium at the new high school. They have a charter, there are safe, there are 5 scouts present. To add an element you mentioned before we will give them a dodge ball we will say that they are having "fun". Are they Scouting? What if we dress everyone up in scout uniforms? Are they scouting yet? Is this a "quality" program in your evaluation? If not, add something to it that does not require quality leadership and tell me when it is a quality scouting program. Add as much as you want. By the way, scouting started and operated for years without charters, or regular meeting places, and sometimes with just one or two scouts. How was that possible? "Oh and one more thing I almost forgot, since our program is run by the PLC and SPL, Id have to say the quality of the SPL and PLC might be even more important than the quality of the unit leader when it comes to the quality of our unit's program." But we are building this quality program without the need for quality leaders. So who exactly trained these scouts to know what the leadership skills of scouting are and what the responsibilities are. Who knew how to lead a boy led unit? Who are their mentors and coaches in this scouting unit? (This message has been edited by Bob White)

What ranks are you sekking questions for?

I was correcting my previous post where I said that high adventure wasn't a method of scouting, I should have said TROOP scouting as that was the topic of our conversation.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Beaver, check with your training Committee, A new Den Chief training program was just released, it is 3.5 hrs long. That might improve attendance.

Thank you Twocubdad you have brought things one step closer. As we agree that nothing has greater effect I now pose this question. Please, name a combination of, let's say, THREE elements that you feel could replace quality leadership and still deliver a quality program. If you cannot come up with three elements that can replace quality leadership try 8. Just keep in mind that they would have to be actions that did not require quality leadership to perform since the premise is that quality leadership is not there. cjmiam Beware the "fun" trap. Yes scouting is fun, but not everything that is fun to a boy is scouting. I have seen troops that do nothing but play dodge ball for an hour every week. The boys have a blast. but IT'S NOT SCOUTING! If you aren't using the methods of the program you are not scouting...you are just doing stuff in a scout uniform.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

"In regards to Youth Protection, however, how should one respond to such a case of endangerment as grave as that of drunk driving?" The same as with any other aspect of youth protection. If you suspect that a crime has been, or is being, committed you are responsible for contacting the local legal authorities and if taking place in a scouting environment, the local council Scout Executive. For specific instructions in your area attend Youth Protection Training or to take it on-line vist your local council web-site.

High adventure is a program feature in troop Scouting, Outdoor Activity is one of 8 Program Methods in troop Scouting. There is a huge and important difference. High Adventure is a Program Method of Venturing. You can deliver a quality troop or pack program without High Adventure.

Adventure is relative, and High Adventure is not a method of scouting, Outdoor Activity is, and outdoor activity is FREE.

And what element do you believe effects a quality program more than the ability of the unit leaders?