Bob White

The Council is responsible for maintaining permanent records for perpetuity. Once the scout leaves the unit there is no need for the unit to retain any of his records. If you have individual records or summaries you should consider giving them to the parents to do with as they wish. Hope this helps, BW

Talk about grasping for straws. Someone explain how the OA is remotely similar. In the OA you have every step explained to you before hand, you are not singled out in a negative way, the purpose and sybolism is explained, and you are made to feel as an honored guest, and yo can choose not to do it and nobody keeps your stuff. Now you tell me how being forced to perform some stunt so that you can get your own property back is the same. These are other peoples kids that have been ebtrusted to us, they are not your personal pet monkeys to make perform for you to makeup for your own inadequacies as a leader. And I am holding back what I would truly like to say!

"WOW Let me quote you, " Not everything we do as scout leaders is covered by policy". This kind of shoots down most of your previous posts where you quote BSA regs as being the only way to do things." No change on my part Backpacker, just a misunderstanding of the program on your part. You need to learn the difference between, policiies (regulations), procedures, and Methods. The policies (regulations) of the BSA are specific sets of rules that cover 4 specific areas (Safety, Membership, Advancement, Uniforms). They are administrative boundaries set by the executive board of the national council. They do three things 1) protect the safety of the youth, 2) protect the image of the BSA, 3)protect the youth from adults misusing the program. Anything else you do in unit service deals with recommended procedures and program Methods. When you misuse the Patrol Method you do not violate any regulation, you simply are not scouting. When you misuse the Leadership method you do not violate a policy, you just aren't scouting. When you have boring troop meetings you don't break any rule, you just aren't scouting. You can wear the uniform perfectly, and follow every policy, but if you do not follow the methods of scouting ...you aren't scouting. It is not enough to just look like a scout leader to deliver the program. Now you may not agree with me, but I will bet I can get a few AMENS! to this post. And as long as there are some out there willing to follow the program then there still some scouts who will get to see the promise of scouting, that was made to them in their handbooks, kept.

While I agree that troops began in 1912, there were Lone Scouts in 1910, two years prior to the formation of troops. Supporting the methods has nothing to do with the regulations. The methods are the program elements of scouting that are designed to be applied by the volunteer leaders at various program levels. The regulations are the rules of Scouting to be followed by everyone. They have no relationship. Most regulations exist to protect the safety of the scouts and the image of the BSA why would every volunteer not want to do either of those? The Methods are how we do what we do. How could any volunteer lead a scouting program and not know and use them? For as frustrated as you are by me supporting them, imagine the frustration that I and other leaders have when confronted with those who do not support them. There is a chaos of volunteers on this board who each sy "here is how I do it, no here is how I do it. Each doing a different method often unrelated to scouting. Then you have a handfull of us saying not 'this is how I do it', but "this is the scouting method, let's all play the same game." I am bewildered at those who take offense to that. Not surprisingly the ones who cry the loudest seem to be the ones furthest from delivering the program.

We didn't have the scouts there for the meal. We ate first and did the adult recognitions next. We had the Boy Scouts show up about 15 minutes ahead of the ceremony during a break. After the crossover we had our closing ceremony and dismissed.

Cramming? Who said anything about cramming? Who even said the size of a tent? Who talked about going over capacity? Who goes to summer camp with knowing how many are going and planning for the proper equipment? This is about the buddy system not about equipment choices. Please, let's not mix the topic.

OOPS, sorry I have enough trouble spelling English before midnight let alone Latin after midnight. (Kind of ironic though that I got Moritati wrong but you spelled "If" incorrectly.)

I think the wrong person is the scoutmaster.

Quando omni flunkus maritati

My recommendation is to get them to a good local camping store to try on packs and find ones that fit them the best and have the features they are looking for. Then take the manufacturer, size, and model number, and do some comparitive shopping. BW

You turned "learned" into "mimic behavior" two totally different things. If your figures are right that they behave according to what they see..how does that make you feel when they see scout leaders breaking the rules? Perhaps you missed the thread we did on this very topic after some leaders expressed how they didn't follow the BSA patrol program or the First Class emphasis program. So we had a number of poster write in with the size of the troop, their irst year retention percentages and whether or not they used the New Scout Patrol and First Class Emphasis plan. The numbers were overwhelming. Units that used The New Scout Patrol and First Class emphasis had more members and lost far fewer new scouts in the first year than the units that didn't follow the program. Not surprising, as a Commissioner I saw those same results all the time. The struggle the BSA has is getting all the units to use the program. I am not the only one on this board that follows and supports the BSA program as it is designed. Folks like OGE and Eamonn and others do as well. So I don't know why the some insist on making this about the way I do things. All I do is follow the program. It's not like I have a monoploy on it. Anyone is welcome to do it and there are plenty of volunteers like me willing to help them along. What I don't understand are the ones who want to be Scout leaders but they just don't want to lead according to Scouting.

Not at all Ed. I just think that if we as adults expect the scouts to obey rules then we should also. Remember "Setting the Example" from your Wood Badge Days, and A scout is trustworthy, friendly and kind? I have never asked anyone to do things my way ed, only to do it the Scouting way. I always marvel at how you have a problem with that approach.

What would make you think I was refering to you Ed? Did it sound like you? I was in fact refering to a post from a different person. Soory you put your hand up for nothing. I know that you posted in June of 2002 that you had 18 scouts. You also said that you had 5 join last year, and I don't know how many in 2003. So now you must have at least what... 25 Scouts? I haven't checked your website in a while so I'll go take a look. Congrats on your scout retention. BW Oh darn Ed your Web-site is down. I know how many scouts you had two-weeks ago. Any change since then?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Rather than redo what is in place, based on the BSA program I would put this years scouts in a new scout patrol and begin the process from there. As next years group comes in make them a new scout patrol and so on. After a short ime you will be back on track. Next years group will be new. Theis yaears group will be Regular, the others depending on their skills can be regular or Venture scouts, and your all set. The goal is to have a patrol of new scouts enter each year as a patrol of older boys age-out.

When I was cubmaster we used the Blue and Gold for three things; 1) celebrate the Birthday of Cubbing 2) recognize adult volunteers 3) crossed the Webelos over to Boy Scouts. It was the Webelos leaders responsibility to have a program that prepared every Webeolos to be ready by then. That gave them 21-months to guide a boy through the Webelos requirements. If a boy attended the majority of meetings he had no trouble making this goal.

That sounds fine barry because you don't riske scaring or injuring someone elses child. Something that doesn't seem to occur to those who flip other peoples kids over.

"Even without the patrol method, a scout can still be prepared. It works for the right situation." You are confusing the terms. Even a scout without a patrol can "be prepared". The "patrol method" is what you do as a leader. It is a program element that you follow and provide to the scout as a tool to achieve the aims of Scouting. When a patrol shows signs of diminishing membership the idea is not to re-organize the patrol but to recruit more members into it. You start early as you see signs of trouble. The time to adjust the course of the ship is before you hit the iceberg not after. What I said was that if only two patrol members go on the campout they can still operate as a patrol, not that a Patrol of only two is a good situation. EagleDad - You said "Aged based patrols are a relatively new idea in the BSA and from my experience," If by recent you mean in only the last 20-years then you are correct. You said, "Reason is that aged based patrols tend to take away the role models that the younger scouts learn from." Thats a shame, you should try using Troop Guides, Instructors and Junior Assistant Scoutmasters as a way to share older scouts abilities with the other scouts. It ios opart of the Leadership Method one of the others in the 8 methods of Boy Scouting. You said "Boys between the age 10 and 14 learn most everything by what the see, not what they hear (80% or more). " Actually that is incorrect. While they do learn more of what they see then of what they hear the number is nowhere that high. The most effective way that boys that age learn is by what they say and do. 10% of what they read 20% of what they hear 30% of what they see 50% of what they see and hear 70% of what they say 90% of what they say and do. BW (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

Scouting started as Lone Scouts in the US. What part don't you understand? If you go to a family reunion and no one else from your household goes, do you become a member of another family or do you just do your best to represent the others in your household by your actions? Are you unable to function by yourself? If so then you should have stayed home likr the others. But if you went with the plan to be adopted by another family well, it just doesn't work like that. The patrol method is designed to form a team, a family, and maintain it. If a patrol for whatever reason drops below 7, I would begin a recruiting incentive for the patrol to motivate them to recruit new members. Why would anyone allow a patrol to get down to one person?

I don't recall anyone saying you were crazy. What we said was the the Scouting program says that is not how you apply the Patrol Method. Wood Badge taught you the same thing. What would give the scout more fun is if the rest of the patrol participated. That is the real problem that the SM should be addressing, not misusing a method to hide an unrelated problem. The Methods of Scouting are not there to be tossed aside to camoflage problems. They are to be applied to avoid problems

First lets clear up the myth that upturning boys is a "tradition" that is load of hooey! This is a relatively recent phenomena perpetrated as a tradition through questionable leadership practices, and the BSA quickly responded by prohibiting it YEARS ago. The problem is, there are nearly 1/4 of a million volunteers and not everybody gets the message or bothers to learn it. It is not a tradition, its hazing. It's the BSA's program and they say its hazing and that's what makes it hazing. If the rule in your house is no smoking and a guest lights up, when you tell him the rule is no smoking but he says its a "tradition" with him, does he get to keep smoking? In many instances "tradition" is nothing more than having done things wrong for so long you now believe them to be right. Here's a great tradition for a unit to consider "we follow the scouting program". Imagine the impact we could have if that was the tradiiton everyone adopted.

You don't think a person can cook for himself. A person can't tell a joke, tell a story, lead a song, do a run on by himself? He can't be unconscious in a tent with another scout? More importantly where is the rest of the patrol? What lead to this situation. I guarantee it wasn't from following the program. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

I am at a loss for words. How do we explain having to perform at command for your own property to someone who sees no fault in turning other people's children upside down?

Patrols are not designed to change with each election. You need to understand the role that group dynamics play in any group situation. The more you re-arrange patrol groupings the longer it will take for them to learn to function as a team and reach a level of performance. With each re-organization the team must begin again to grow through the 4 stages of group dymnamics, you hurt the performance of the patrol and the troop each time you do this. This is even something you learned about in Wood Badge. Did you re-arrange Wood Badge Patrols every time the patrol leader changed? Also you have to stop looking at the "troop" as the most important group. It's the patrol, it has always been the patrol. The troop is nothing more than a gathering of patrols. Each patrol is a separate self governing entity, independent of other patrols but gathering with other patrols to share resources for the benefit of each. The patrol is as a one State is to the United States. If your patrol of three is overburdened when cooking on a campout, the problem is not the patrol method. the problem is they have not been taught to cook properly for that size group. Do not throw away the patrol method, teach the proper skills. The contigent troops are just that, a troop formed for a special event, not the usaul circumstance. Can you think of a better way to organize 38000 people quickly? You cannot base the local troop or patrol on an event that lasts 10-days every 4-years. Do you really want to compare the quality and effort put forth in an allstar game to a regular game? They are the worst games of the season. The results do not matter and the players know it. They don't give full effort because it doesn't help their team regardless of the results. (This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

The Methods of scouting are the key ingredients that make the program work. Unless you use the Methods of the program you are not scouting you are just doing 'stuff' in a scout uniform. Ignoring the methods to "adjust to the situation at hand" is just an excuse for not learning or applying the scouting methods and just doing what you want. I welcome any example of real life scouting situation where the methods of scouting cannot be applied. Or a problem situation in pack or troop scouting where straying from the methods was not a cause of the problem. Understanding the Methods allows flexibility but keeps everything you do moving towards accomplishing the aims and mission, there is a purpose to the program and doing 'stuff' that doesn't move the boys toward the aims is not keeping the promise of scouting. "Most troops don't do everything by the book"? You have knowledge of the activities of most troops in the BSA? That is amazing! These are NOT my ideas, they are the programs of the BSA developed over the last 94 years. "As long as you are not jeopardizing the safety of the boys and it works for your troop, even if it is not in the guidelines, then go for it. That in my opinion would be an absolute waste of time and a betrayal of trust of the parents who look to us as scout leaders to help develop young people of value and character. If you allow the scout unit you serve to forfeit that goal and simply be a safe place to play then you have betrayed the boys, the parents and the decades of volunteers who have worked to achieve the aims of the program. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

5 Yes 1 No Have you ever considered that for one scoutleader out of five the perfect day of scouting would include having the opportunity to hold a boy upside-down while he cleaned a latrine singing "I'm a Little Tea Pot".