Bob White

I ask that comments be self-controlled to discussing only the topic at hand. Using the information gained through Wood Badge for the 21st Century, how many see a correlation between the stages of group dynamics and what is happening in the thread on Patrol Size at the moment. What was the catalyst? How long will each stage take? What is the expected outcome? What is the next step? How does this relate to the patrol method and patrol organization? (and it absolutely does)

That's what I was curious about Hops, I have never seen any "Venture Patrol Stuff" except for what is in the BSHB and the Scoutmaster Handbook. What exactly did he give you?

I am happy for Ed if he feels he has a firm grasp on the word active. If only leadership was that simple. My conversation is with ps56k. As he and I discuss the matter I think he will discover the scouting solution. You are welcome to listen in and talk with hinm as well. BW (This message has been edited by Bob White)

OGE or Hops Could I ask for your assistance. This thread was not about me, it was to be a discussion of Group Dynamics. Since a poster has hijacked the topic could you please transfer his comments to an appropriate location and allow the discussion at hand to continue.

Almost exactly what I would have expected from you. When you cannot discuss the topic you attack the poster. Now that you have that out of the way we can let the Leaders who have attended Wood Badge discuss the topic. BW

Older scouts do not need to be handled. They need to be understood and served a program appropriate to their interests and abilities. The answer is program. If they have not been given a program that meets their needs it will be difficult to convince them they will suddenly get one now. Use the older scouts that do come to develop an active program that they enjoy. That will help to lure the others back. "Do not expect scouts to come to any meeting or outing if you are not the BEST show in town." William (Green Bar Bill) Hillcourt BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Here is my reply Ed. The question was asked by ps56k, my discussion is with him. Ed, you have chosen how you interpret the methods of scouting and "your" troop has lost over 66% of its members in the last two years. What was 18 Scouts, plus two years of recruiting new Webelos, is now a troop of 7. Unfortunately I am sure that another group of Webelos are in your sights, and they too will soon become more sad statistics for you. If others want to follow "your" scouting they are welcome to. I choose to follow the Scouting program and have not lost that many scouts before they aged out in nearly 27 years. I couldn't care less what you want from me. Anyone else who thinks the methods are there for you to "experiment" and feel that in your short experience you know better than the 94 years of experience of the BSA...the line forms behind Ed. You hurt only the Scouts you promised to serve. OGE was right! BW (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Then I would as ps56k, "Based on the description of 'active' in the Boy Scout Handbook, and what you have learned in the basic training courses for scouting of the ideals and methods of scouting, what do you see as next step in your role in the troop regarding this requirement?" Hers is just a suggestion to ps56k and others who turn to outlets like the internet for scouting solutions. Consider asking the person who answers your post if they follow the program or not and how it has worked for them. You have a right to know if they are leading you on a path to success or if they just want company as they make their own way. Just a suggestion. BW

Are these rhetorical questions or do you want a reply?

Using the information gained through Wood Badge for the 21st Century, how many see a correlation between the stages of group dynamics and what is happening in the thread on Patrol Size at the moment. What was the catalyst? How long will each stage take? What is the expected outcome? What is the next step? How does this relate to the patrol method and patrol organization? (and it absolutely does)

Barry, I invite you to bring to light any evidence of any of the things you accuse me of. I have never demanded anyone go "by the Book" I have asked, urged, guided, pleaded and begged people to learn and follow the BSA program. Is that really to much to ask of anyone who wants to be called a scout leader...that we expect them to lead according to the scouting program? Where did I say that if you don't follow the book you aren't scouting? What I said was if you do not use the Methods of scouting then you arent scouting. That's a fact Barry, it is the Methods that make Scouting, Scouting. If you dress as a baseball player but do not follow the elements of the game it's not baseball. Baseball has a specific program structure that a player can expect to find every time he plays the game. So does scouting, and if you are not following that structure then you have changed the game and it is no longer scouting. If that causes anyone anxiety then good. If you aren't making the effort to follow the Scouting programs it should bother you. It bothers the boys when they don't get the program promised them, so it ought to bother the leaders as well. Professionals are necessary to the BSA and to the community. But their role is not program quality per se. Program quality is the responsibility of volunteers. For a professional to only be concerned about Quality Unit is unfortunate and it ignores the responsibility given to him or her by the wreath of service they wear on their sleeve. A Trainer and in Commissioner service my concern is that every scout recieves the BEST possible Scouting program available, not just the minimum program elements...the BEST. If you have a problem with that so be it, I have none. To think that I could intimidate you or any one else is nonsense. What can I do to you? I have no authority in your council or unit even if I knew who or where you were. I am type face on a screen and nothing more. Consider what I offer, read the resources I share, take the training I recommend or do not. But if you have the freedom to tell me to stop pushing the actual program then I have the freedom to say when you are pushing something that is not the actual program. Have I ever given advise or information that harmed a unit or a program? Have I ever told anyone to violate a policy? Have I ever not defended a youth member who needed help because of an adult who was not following the program? Have I ever not assisted any adult who asked me for help to improve their service to the youth? Will you get some people to agree with you? I am sure you will, no one is liked by everyone. But I get 50 to 75 private meassages each month from posters on this board asking for my help but who do not want to post because of the amount of trash directed at the program or me personally. So to all interested in adding to Barry's post I say "take your best shot" I will continue to post in support of the BSA's program not my own because I do not have a program. I will continue to use the policies, procedures and methods of the BSA in accordance with the promise I made when I signed my application as a volunteer. I will continue to enjoy sharing the promise of scouting with other liked minded volunteers. And I will continue to hope that those who do not know or understand the program they said they would lead, will make the opportunity to take the available training, and follow the available resources, or step aside and make room for those who are willing. Yours in Scouting Bob White

"Just for a point - I don't believe that any of the BSA materials, handbooks, or whatever specifically define what is to be considered as "active"" That would be incorrect.

"The G2S2 says that each Webelos Scout needs to have an adult taking responsibility for him during the campout. http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/gss03.html#aa Under this rule - two adults could accompany the den and still be in compliance. (I don't recommend that)" That is not correct. The Leader may not supervise anyone other than his own children, the other adult can only supervise one scout besides their own. A Webelos Den of three could camp with two adults. Someone please explain to Ed the difference between a supervising adult and a legal guardian.

Oh for Pete's sake answer the question. Does the OA require the candidate to perform an embarrassing act in front of the other members? And I warn you if you say "yes" somebody is going to ask you to name it because many of us are OA and we know that there isn't any such inane requirement. Not even one that you can conjure through some overactive imigination or pretense.

I'm happy to hear he has received his rank. It's unfortunate he had to lose all that time. When adult leaders do not follow the program it is always the scout s who get punished. BW

OK so we adapt. Now the flip side if both are in the same patrol and the family can't make the meeting you now lose two from that patrol rather than one scout from each of two. Right? So no matter which you choose having brothers in the troo has its up and downs.

Yes or No Packsaddle The OA requires each candidate to perform an enbarrassing act in front of the other members?

I never said the things you credit to me, and you know it. Ed knows also. The other posters know it as well. I don't know why you have brought this kind of baggage with you or who you posted as before, but I have asked you before to give a single piece of evidence to support the trash you spout and you never did. I invite you again. I never applied a method of scouting to no boy sleeps alone. I have never told people to do as I do I have only urged them to follow the BSA program. I have never claimed to be an expert. I have never claimed expertise based on the number of posts or lack of from lack of posting. This is just a bunch of trumped up bilge, and you cannot back up one word of the falsehoods you have spouted. If you ca offer one piece of evidence to backup you accusations I welcome it. I would hope the management of the board will require you to either stick to the topic or clam up. Your attacks do nothing to add to the quality of these conversations.

Your troop and charter organization dug the well to hold the water before they checked to see if a spring existed to fill it. Just starting a unit does not create its success. The need has to exist first and these scouts didn't need a new name they needed a program that interested them. Taking a bunch of bored scouts and putting them in their own room just gives you a room full of bored scouts.

SR504Beaver When you were a scout would you say that you and youbrother were similar in age, ability and interests? If so then you belong in the same patrol. These two boys are almost three years apart. They are not similar in age or abilitiy. At this point the only interest thay share that we know of is that they are both in scouting. If the troop has a new scout patrol it would fit the younger boys developmental stage better at this time. BW

"Is singing for lost items hazing? Most likely. But in doing it, the youth did learn some responsibility" More likely they learned avoidance, Oh, and they learned how to sing.

You are required to be more specifc in your expectations. tell him in writing, which requirements he did not complete, what specifically he must do for completion, and the date he will be reviewed again. The best thing you can do is for the SM to give him positive direction and specific and immediate reinforcement when he displays the appropriate behavior. BW

What does the Boy Scout Handbook say the requirement refers to? What does the Scoutmaster Handbook say about board of reviews. Forget about what you thought you heard, dont' worry about what others say. follow the Scouting program. You will find your answers in the BSA resources and through training opportunities offered by your District and Council. Best Wishes, BW

The Webelos Program is different then the other three ranks. Some of its activity badges require a two month period and now there are a set of activity badges required for earning the Webelos Badge so they usually get scheduled first. This does not impede the Webelos from participating in the Pack meeting in any way. BW

If you use the New Scout Patrol I would put him there. If you don't, and you were going to toss him into a mixed patrol anyway, then I would put him with his brother, if that is what the brothers want. Parents do not run troops. BW