Bob White

Yes

"Get Hooked on Scouting" and use Fish lures, bobbers, netting for garland etc.

The Charter Organization Representative for the Lion's Club. Because the pack isn't "partnered" with the CO. The CO is partnered with the BSA, and the CO owns the pack, and is responsible for selecting the right leaders and providing a scouting program to the youth it serves. I realize as the CO that the pack was not following the program at the school and it is not the meeting place that determines the program plan, it's the people. I know that if they keep doing what they have always done, then they will always get what they have always gotten. So I interview the current leadership, dertermine who remains a registered leader and in what position. I insist that everyone who registers makes a committment to get trained within 90-days and I make sure it happens. I choose a new committee chair who is a member of the Lions and we meet with the Cubmaster monthly to make sure there is a planned program and the den leaders have all the tools they need to be successful. Then I make sure we celebrate the new improved program and recognize the adult volunteers who made it happen. B:)b White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Because the BSA advanceent method is based on positive reinforcement. I don't know that you can give a youth too much reinforcewmnt for doing the right thing. If you can take service work done by a scout and find multiple ways to recognize those efforts then that is a good thing not something you should be looking for ways to avoid. The BSA allows that work too be used for multiple purposes unless otherwise stated in the requirement. There are millions of youth who do nothing to help others, let's celebrate the Scouts efforts in numerous ways if possible. B:)b White

I think that is an excellent plan CubsRgr8.

My apologies to Ed, I sjould not have placed quotation marks or attributed that first premise to him. Unc, ease up! You are reading way too much into this. I was making a point about patrol sizes. That's all. So while a patrol of 6 to 10 is recommended. The important thimg is not the number, it is the ability of the patrol to function as a patrol. A ptrol of 5 boys aof similar ages and abilities will function better and last longer than a patrol of 10 of mixed ages and abilities. My advice to mich is to focus on the purpose of the patrol method and the characteristics of the specific group of Scouts and structure a patrol that is based on what would be most successful for them, rather than on a specific number. Unc buddy, relax, take a nap.

Ed thank you for your concern, but my brother is doing just fine. In fact he has retained 100% of his kids for the last three years. An feat some Scoutleaders do not do in 9 months.

If, as Ed says, a Patrol of 6 is "too small", then is it the consensus of this forum that a patrol of 5 is unable to function as a Patrol? If a Troop is a gathering of Patrols as the Scouting program says it is...what about a troop with only one patrol, is it really a troop or is it just one patrol? What if that one patrol only has 5 boys in it, can it be a funtioning unit of any kind? I am curious as to the consensus on this as well. B:)b White

"Is it not the purpose of the forum a friendly interchange of ideas among scouters," I would agree that is purpose, and so achieving and maintaining that state would be the sought after performance for the group. Ed, it has everything to do with group dynamics. You are correct, that is how 3 year olds behave. We know that. Why is that? Why those behaviors take place is explained in the team dynamics model.

Attendance is a local program problem. Unless you have evidence that the majority of the nearly 300 councils are experiencing the same low turnout you really have little to suggest that this is a national program problem. If you want scouts to come to a business meeting it had better be a good one. Most Scouts are here for fun and adventure. OA represents the best scouts from every unit and yet I have never attended an OA meeting that made me want to go back again. I do not blame the scouts. In every case I saw it was either run by way too many adults or with no adult guidance and coaching at all. It seems to be either choke them with adult input or abandon them to let them drown on their own.

This is not just applicable to patrols. It applies to any group. My brother and his wife recently had a baby bringing their family to 4 (forming the group). Their 3 year old was fine until the baby was actually born. Even in the birthing room he would not leave his toys to go to lunch for fear the "baby" would take them. For a few days he was watching very closely to see who this new person was and what he was capable of, and what effect it would have on him (storming). By the fourth day he was able to go about his day without any concern for the new guy and would go over and check him out and ask questions about when he would be able to play with him (norming). A week later he was helping to entertain him, offered him his toys to play with and asked if he could teach his new brother how to walk. he had accepted the baby as a family (team or group)member and was ready to do things together (performing). They experienced the same dynamics as any "group" will go through. This is not about patrols but applies to patrols because they are a team..a group... and so these forces will arise at predictable times. Just as they arose in this group at a predictable time, when new members joined. It will end when members of the group begin to "norm", that is when they find their niche in the group and make determinations on others. Not all will norm, and of those that do not all norm at the same time. The group that does will begin having meaningful exchanges (perform) sooner than those who continue storming for position. While I look forward to friendly exchanges it is apparent not not all posters are here for that. That constant storming for identity within the group will not halt performance entirely but it does keep the group from being able to achieve peak performance.

Who is eligible is determined by the Policies of the OA and it has changed very little. Who is Qualified is determined by the scouts and the process has changed very little. Who is deserving is determined by the scoutmaster.....perhaps that is where the problem is.

First F Scouter. No it is not, it was a request to become a more positive voice in the discusson. Eamonn I have heard and presented the Forming, storming, norming and performing process under both titles. The important part is of course the content more so than what we call it by. And you hit it. Storming "is a time when the group members are experiencing a lot of dissatisfaction,and the morale of the group is low. Some members of the group will present differing points of view and there could be conflict within the group and even the task or goal could be brought into question." This is a common occurrence in any gorup when it is first formed or when new members are added, and even sometimes when they leave. How long stroming lasts and how volatile it is depends on the specific group. It is also posible for part of the group to stay locked in the storming process while others movr into norming. Storming is a period where group member's determine not only the groups overall structure but make determinations of individual and group strengths and weaknesses. Individuals try to show their abilities as individuals so that their position in the group can be determined. You see this in patrols when new members come in or when a patrol is newly formed. During storming the performance is always reduced since members are not focused on working together but are workung to establish their own position. That is why reoganizing patrols is so harmful to the program, everytime you reorganize the group or team will go through this storming phase which could last months or minutes you cannot predict it. But you can reduce it by grouping scouts similar in age, ability, and experience. In a situation such as this board, we see our own performance drop off dramatically as new members jon and the storming resurfaces. In an attempt to show the new posters who has what skills or what each others role is in the forum we suddenly see attacks on posters display individual knowledge. For the last few "storms" when new people join, my posts weree chosen for others to challenge, not over their content but to challenge me personally, in order to establish individual roles in the group. I(f you loo back at similar occurences it is for the most part the same people each time. As I said while stroming continues the performance of the group as a whole is greatly lowered. The likely outcome is that norming will be achieved after an unkown length of time among a portion of the group rather than the group as a whole, as new members make their determinations as to what the role on the forum is of each individual and what their role will be withing the group. After that a perion of normaly will resume and performance will increase until new members Join and the storming process will repeat. The interesting thing about these dynamics is they cannot be avoided, even once you know they exist, it is an inevitable process that must take place in order to funtion as a group.

Not easier to get elected. It still takes 50% or more of the scouts to vote for you. They simply have the option of recognizing more scouts who are worthy. Whether you have a room of ten good scouts or forty good scouts it is still a room of good scouts. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

The great grey bird is correct as usual.

Lets clear a few things up. ANY group goes through the 4 stages of group development it may happen at different times and for different lengths of timeand at different intensities, but all groups are subject to the same dynamic forces. Storming is not dependent on either leadership or vision. In fact it is through storming that leadership often arises and that a group vision is formed so not only do that not need to be present ahead of time they are often the result of the storming activity. So this is a very appropriate topic. So I will ask the qwuestion again. What is storming, and what is its purpose. Backpack you took the course, rather than interfer why not participate in a more positve way and share what you learned about storming as a Wood Badge staff member?

So adding new members can cause a team to storm. Have you noticed an addition of a number of new members to the forum just before this brewhaha began? The last time this happened (about two months ago) we had just gotten a group of new members. What is storming and what purpose does it serve? Totally unrelated to problem solving, but nice try. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

And what can happen within a group to cause it to storm TP? Sorry backpacker, I didn't mean to leave you out. You mentioned that you were on staff for WB for 21st Century, what do remember as being a cause for storming in an established group? (This message has been edited by Bob White)

I do not understand how you can come to the conclusion that the OA has been diluted. The scouts are required to have the same qulafications as before, and they still nedd to recieve votes from have of the voting members. If you have 8 eligable candidates and all 8 are good scouts, and all 8 are selected, how is that diluting anything? What if all 8 were 8 and only 5 got elected. How has the OA benefitted more from this? It seems to me that the key is not the mechanics of the election itself but how the troop is educated in the importance of their decision before they cast their ballot. When the adult leaders do not take an interest in explaining to scouts the importance of a vote and the responsibility that goes with voting then the OA gets diluted, regardless of how many are elected for candidacy.

I was speaking more along the lines of the 4 phases of team development. What is the first phase and what can cause it? Have we seen that here?

You can call the National Scout Office in Irving, Texas and ask for the Jamboree division.

There are a lot of good reasons to wear the uniform on activities such as this. First it's appropriate for the activity level. If we are traveling long distances and not straight to a campsite I find it easier to find the pack or troop members if they are uniformed. I also see how boys and adults in uniform behave better. And like others I have never had the scouts out in public and not have people say a lot of very nice things about them and the program. As far as the uniform goes the posters are correct that there is no Cub Uniform EXCEPT for Tiger Cubs, for all other levels you are either in uniform or not in uniform (See page 12-11 of the Cub Scot Leader Book) There is no Class A or B however the description given of the Fiekd and Activity uniforms was incomplete. The Field Uniform should have included BSA tan shirt and BSA pants or shorts (BSA tan or yellow blouse, and BSA skirt, slacks, or shorts for the women), BSA belt, BSA socks. The Activity Uniform is a Scouting Related T-shirt or polo, BSA pants or shorts, BSA belt, BSA socks. The uniform is a controlled trademark of the BSA it is always good to see it worn correctly. BW

Actually 100% of the troop can be elected if 100% of the troop is qualified. I have seen elections where 12 were qualified and 9 got elected, and other times when 12 were qualified and only two got elected. The method hasn't changed much that I aware of in many years.

The YP video, YP on-line training, and Safety Video of New leader essentials all say Leagal Guardian. Guardian is a legal term, is is a court ordered protector. The BSA training resources speak of a "supervising adult" for activities but says "parent or guardian" for who can be in the tent. If the adult supervisor was all that was needed there would be no need to distinguish between the two. If you still are unbelieving please call your council executive before you make a grave error. BW

Thats what I thought. Hops you remember how we warned that there are Venturing Crews and Venture Patrols and to be careful not to confuse them? Well your SM just confused them. What he showed you is for a Venturing Crew, not a Venture patrol. They are totally different. You may want to find out exactly what your SM has in mind. Is he looking to start an entirely new unit, or a patrol for older more skilled scouts? Read page 419 to 423 of the Boy Scout Handbook that explains the Venture Patrol program. A similar text is in the SM hHandbook. to my knowledge that is the only material outside of the individual activity books that talks about the Venture Patrol. BW