Bob White

Family camping is a separate activity put on by the Council,District, or a Cub Pack, not a Troop. If a troop is doing things that a 6-year-old can participate in then they can't be doing a very good Boy Scout program. If a parent brings a sibling they should not be there to participate in the Scouts' activities. BW

And perhaps answer this at the same time. If the program works (since no one has yet to prove it doesn't) why would you need to change it? Why not just follow the Scouting program? If in fact you are going to change it why not create your own uniform and call what you do by a different name since you are leading a different program.

Cajoncody Since you are becomming Cubmaster may I make a suggestion. Take a few items at a time and take them from what they do now to what they should be according to the Cub Program methods. If you do everything a little bit at a time you are going to drive people crazy with small adjustmments and the cubs you serve today will be den leaders by the time you have a real Cub Program operating. I would do the following things in this order. Insist that the Committee Chair attentds training and gets the committee functioning properly to support a real cub program. Have all your den leader watch Fast Start and explain that there will be changes for the good of the program made over the next 3 months. Arrange with the District training Chair for New Leader essentials and Cub Job Specific to be brought to your location at your group's convienience to get everyone. Go to one pack meeting a month (60 or 90 minutes depending on the size of the pack). One, 1-hour, Den meeting a week for every den except for the week of the Pack meeting. Make sure the committee gets every Den leader the program resources they need to be successful. Handbook for their den's rank Cub Leader Book Program Helps or Webelos Leader Guide (depending on the den level) How to Book Cub Song Book Meet once every two months to review pack meeting agendas and Den activities with your program group. Keep the committe informed of your progress and your program needs. Have Fun! BW

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

First Eagle90 I was unaware that you were being forced to participate and endanger your health. Please tell however made you post that participation is voluntary and anyone not wanting to participate needs only to read another thread. For those who do read this, the point was made clear. Unless you can show instances when you followed the program and it did not work, then we have to assume that the program really does work. That brings up the question of "If it works, why do some leaders choose not to learn or not to follow it?" That is what should raise your blood pressure as a leader. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Unfortunatly as the wolf Den Leader the best you can do is to have the best den you can. Unless the Cubmaster changes or is changed the pack will contuinue to decay. If you were to become CM or CC you could do alot to remedy the situation. BW

Honestly you van do a fine jpob as a Scoutmaster using the Boy Scout Handbook, Scoutmaster Handbook, The Senior Patrol Leader Handbook and The Patrol Leaders Handbook. I would take out YPT, That requires you be approved as a presenter by the Scout executive. YPT training is a responsibility of the Council/district training committees. Consider adding the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual, Insignia Control Guide, Historic Trails list, Camp cook book, Be Expert with Map and Compass, Peterson's Field Guide to Bird Identification. A good mammal Identification guide, a good plant identification guide, a good knot book....... You see the problem with education is it never ends.

At the beginning of each Troop meeting the PL of each patrol gets a scout coin (available at your service center), When the scout sign goes up the patrol that is the first to go silent gets another coin. The patrol that is last gets one taken away. At the end of the meeting the patrol with more than one coin gets a reward. The others do not. There are a number of rewards you can use, be creative. Eamonn brings up an excellent point start with The PLC and the adults make sure everyone understands why it is important for thenm as leaders to control their team for the benefit of all. Let us know how things go. BW

Believe me if I was looking to settle for less a couple of posters wouldn't bother me as much.

The plot thins. either activity is fine for a scout just not a scout unit. No harm, no foul. Everyone back to the game.

"So you agree with me, when adults of one program have go to other programs looking for any kind of help, then something is wrong with that program. As those leaders found out, it didnt help them and they were still frustrated." What I agree with is that the two programs have nothing to do with each other. Do these same leader go to a Hardware store to get a haircut? Venture Patrols are discussed in Scoutmaster Asst Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training and in the Scoutmaster Handbook. It is a logical progression from experienced patrols. Do not confuse boy run with adult abandonment. Adults play a leadershp role in all levels of troop scouting, hence the title scout leader. With Venure patrol there are new activities, more advanced skills and new recognitions to learn about. The patrol leader remains a member of the PLC but often Leadership changes more frequently so that the Venture Scout can lead the great adventure they have a personal affinity for. New anything is a challenge for boys, but with goot training prior to moving to the Venture Patrol and good leadership skills on the part of the ASM then after a short adjustment period there is no reason for things not going well. But it would be helpfull if the leaders take the training for the program they are actually in.

Risking sounding like a broken record here is another problem caused by not following the program. Both the Cub Leader Handbook and the Troop Committee Guide say that the unit must have two signatures required to right a check, and that a detailed monthly financial report be made to the committee. Here a tip we give our committees during training. Each month after the treasurers report have another member of the committee call the bank and verify the balance reported. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Each UW chapter is an independent body which can make decisions based on the needs and characteristics of the community it serves, It is musch like a BSA Council. It pays a portion of the money collected to the national office which is responsible for training, marketing tools, methodology, trademark ownership, and the like. Each local chapter has a professional director and staff that do the everyday administration. Again much like a BSA council. It then has a number of volunteer committees that do much of the actual work. Hope this helps. BW

EagleDad you are mixing terms and programs together. This could be one of the problems your patrol had. Venture Patrol and Venturing are two totally separate, totally different programs. There is no such thing as Venture patrol training for Assistant Scoutmasters. There is Venturing Crew training for Advisors and Associate Advisors of a Venturing Crew. But there are no Assistant Scoutmasters, or even Scoutmasters, or even patrols, in Venturing. So If your ASMs went to Venturing training to operate a Venture Patrol it is no wonder things did not work, they are two separate programs. See we are back again to the problem of the program not being used correctly and that is why it failed. River2K Your problem is one of experience and practice. You have the right idea but need to understand implementation better. It will be tough to do a 60 min. training session on the internet but i will give highlights. Then if you want to to cintinue to work the program and want to discuss this more I will PM my Phone# to you and you can call and we will talk. Do not expect junior leaders to understand the leadership roles and responsibilities immediatly, especially if they are new to the Patrol method. The adult leaders #1 responsibility to to train and develop them to be able to lead. The responsibility is as much yours as theirs if the job is not getting done. Formulating all the details for decision making is new to boys this age. Help them by making their choices simplier at first. Rather than say "Where do you want to go next month and when do you want to go", say we have three choices for activities next month here they are, or you can suggest a fourth one" Then say here are the two times the adult leadership is available, which date do you want". After they bain some experience you can leave more blanks open for them to fill in. You want better attendance at PLCs make them fun. Meet at someones house with a ping pong table or video games, or a pool, or air hockey, Let them know that if they want to show up early they can play, and then once the business is done if there is time we can play some more. Work ahead of time over the phone with the SPL and have a tight agenda so that the PLC learns how to focus on work so they can get it done and enjoy the rewards of leadership. When you see a PL or SPL or other junior leader do even the slightest leadership action corectly..tel them right away. Be specific "I saw how you helped Tom with that problem, good leaders take good care of those they lead, nice job." You have to take good leadership actions and hold them up for the scout to see so they know extacly what it is you mean. When a leader makes a mistake talk to them (don't holler) I saw you pick on Tom for not getting the dishes clean, how did thank that worked for you? If a Scout is friendly courteous and kind, how could that have been done differently?" Then you coach him through to the right response. "I agree that would have been a better way, thats good thinking, Thats the kind if thinking that makes for good leadership." You cannot blame Scouts for not being good leaders. Everyone already knows that. Other organizations don't let boys make decisions for that very reason. Scouting is supposed to be different. You need to realize they aren't good at it because no one before you has taken the time to teach them. YOU are the difference when you follow the program. If you want to continue this we can go to the Scout Chat room sometime on MSN or You can call me. Your Choice. BW Backpacker and Ed et al In the past OGE and I have been accused of being the same person. we of course are not. Nor are Eamonn and I brothers separated by gypsies. We (along with a number of other contributors to this forum) just share an understanding and belief in the program and had enough faith and respect in the 94 year experience of those volunteers and professionals who designed it, to actually follow it. The difference between us is patience. When it comes to adults who chase boys from scouting, I have none. When a person says they know scouting but don't use it, I have none. When someone says they are something that they are not, I have none. OGE was the right choice as the moderator. When I was a Scout our troop had thing where in order to come sit at the campfire you had to bring a piece of firewood with you. Unless you brought your share to help the fire you had to leave. when you came back with wood you could stay. This wasn't a lesson in firebuilding, it was a lesson in citizenship. If you want to be recognized as a valuable person to the community you have to make a contribution to the community. Had I been the moderator, there are a few posters would be sent out to look for wood. Bob White

Eagledad, I would agree that a VENTURE patrol when done in the way you describe will not work. I also have seen it done that way and fail. But I have have seen it done correctly and succeed. The difference. The way you have seen it fail is not the scout method. Check out the Scoutmasters Handbook and you will see that the Venture patrol is to have an assigned ASM to oversee the program, few if any troops ever do that. It is to have its own troop program. How often did you see that done. It has its own additional recognition program. Did you see a unit do that? Finally do you really believe that changing the name will bring success. If you always do, what you have always done, you will always get what you always got. No matter what you label it. BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Sorry, if you missed that recent post Ed. "The scouting program is the interaction of the Scouting methods for the goal of achieving the aims and mission." The scouting program is the journey not the destination. There are other programs that teach fitness, sharacter and citizenship, but they are ot Scouting programs. What makes it scouting is the program methods. How do you measure it? One real good way is self evaluation by comparing what you do, with what you are supposed to be doing. There are several common elements of a successful units. They have been posted here before. You will find them easily in a thread search. BW

Rarely are the people who do the presentations the same people who set the local UW policies or determine the distributions. Grilling them will only creat anymosity toward the program. Find out who is on the UW Board that determines distribution and contact them. express in positive terms your support for the BSA or specific other programs that you wnat to see your money support. Let them know that the amount of your donation is directly related to seeing the programs that you endorse get support from the UW. That will make a much more powerful impact that grilling a volunteer presenter. Yes, pass through programs are available but the UW takes a hefty administrative fee from those donations, the exact amount varies from chapter to chapter.

I don't know who edits or compiles the News letter. I do not know their training in scouting. But I do not assume that an advertiser determines policy nor would I follow their scouting advice without checking the G2SS. Is it sloppy editing. Certainly. Should we use it as evidence to support a resticted activity? Certainly not.

"This thread is a set up! Run away!" I can think of no one better suited to lead the retreat. This is not a set-up. It is an open opportunity to prove that you used the program, not just the program titles, and did not get positive results. Eagle dad is the only one to even come close to an example but only ran into problems when he stopped using the program not during the time he used it. This is no trap. This is evidence the methods work. We have plenty of examples that not using the methods fail.

"it was time to integrate these new boys into patrols for summer camp." I'm sorry, what does that mean? You took a 12 to 14th program and ended it in 6 months and suddenly it didn't work? Where did you get the idea that "it was time" after only 6 months. Why couldn't they go to summer camp without being "integrated"? As far as not knowing the boys. Is there anything in the methods of scouting that kept the scouts from getting to know each other. They never sat around a campfire together, played games together, worked on service projects together, attended PLCs, were introduced to junior leaders by the Troop Guide? You see them not integrating into other patrols well as a BSA problem, when it is the BSA telling you that they won't integrate well until they have more skills and more in common as they age. Yet you mix them after only six months and blame the program for not working? You didn't say anything about the program not working WHILE you followed the program. It wasn't until you deviated after only 6 months that you had a problem. This was the BSA's doing? How?

Why would you think that what an advertiser wants you to do, and what the BSA allows you to do would somehow be related?

PNS think about it a moment. Calling it a New Scout Patrol doesn't mean you followed the program. Did you limit the patrol size to the correct number Did it have a Troop Guide that joined that patrol and worked in tantem with a temporary PL Did each scout get to be PL for a month and attend a PLC Did the NSP program have an assigned ASM that had a separate planned program based on the First Class emphasis Did the scouts who attended have the opportunity to learn practice and apply all the requirements for Scout to First Class within the first 14 months. If you did those things you used the scouting program I don't care if you call it a giraffe. Has anyone done those steps and not had success? Not that anyone has ever mentioned. But we have had LOTS of posters, even some with enough experience to know better, who didn't follow it and yet complain that scouts quit, or have poor attendance, or don't want to participate, yet they never change. Instead they blame the kids and the parents. You can post as many excuses as you wish. No one has yet to prove that the BSA methods do not work, and yet still leaders choose not to use them. WHY?

I agree with Eagle, which is why I asked the question. When Romboman says "We have taken out our boys numerous times to play paintball, and other such "forbidden" activities." If by "our boys" he means the scouts in the troop he serves, then he is violating BSA policy. If a scout were injured you can bet a laywer is going to go after the BSA the Troop Leaders and the CO. If romboman wants to endanger his own finances that's one thing. But what gives him the right to include the BSA after they told him not to do the activity, and the savings of the CO and its membership who likely had no idea of the illicit event. When he said " and it must be clear to all who participate that no uniforms are worn." That is a dodge. If he thinks the only thing that keeps this from being a scouting event is the uniform he is woefully wrong. If this was discussed at any scout function or through the troop communication tools, or chaparoned by the scout leaders then this is indeed a scout event. What does this teach the boys. If they want to go play lazer tag let them go. But be honest with them. Tell them that pointing weapons at other people is not an activity supported by the BSA. they will have to plan and do that activity outside of scouting, without the scout leaders. We do not control all aspects of their life, but we are expected to control the scouting part and if you don't think what you do makes a difference...then you are probably right. BW

I agree with everything Eamonn posted except for one thing. The definition of "the program". I think he said it though perhaps unintentionally. The scouting program is the interaction of the Scouting methods for the goal of achieving the aims and mission. If you use the methods of scouting the program works. Will there be annoyances? Sure, we deal with a variety of people, there will always be annoyances. But if each person did the job the BSA asked them to do in the methods they teach we would reach our goals in every unit. But Eamonn points out the biggest problem we face. When a unit is in trouble, it always boils down to someone not following the methods. No matter how much energy or resources anyone puts into solving the problem, if the individual does not agree to change to the BSA methods the problem cannot be solved. Look at the vast majority of posts on this board. Most are about problems resulting from not following the BSA methods or procedures. Never has anyone shown "I did it the way the BSA said to do it and it didn't work". Why is the notion that the program works greeted with such distain by some posters on a continual basis? I believe it is because in order to admit the program works some leaders would have to admit that what they have been doing doesn't. They would rather lose boys and keep their control over "their" scout unit, then relinguish that grip and deliver scouting. I am not talking about new leaders still learning who haven't figured out the methods yet. I am talking about leaders who refuse to learn or apply the methods and procedures of scouting. If you know what the methods are, and no one can dispute that they work, then you in heavens name doesn't everyone follow them? Can anyone shed some light on that?

Its Me First, you are off the topic, since you obviously have nothing to contribute on this subject please feel free to start a thread on your side issue. Second, Youe asumption is untrue and a blatant falsehood. Last, I challange you to come up with a single post where I even suggest such a thing. If you cannot tell the truth please choose a different target.