Bob White

"Certainly the spare would still need to be inspected for gashes or damage from road debris. What would the inspection interval be?" And who will do that? Certainly not the driver you discussed. Thay didn't make time to check the pressure why would they make time suddenly to inspect the entire tire? If they had done what the manufacturer had instructed them to do they would have had less work and fewer problems. Your example is a good one. Our driver had no need for the manufacturer to change things, and in fact the drivers solution was more work than if they had followed the manufacturers program. Plus, the foam filled tire does not ride as smoothly, and does not perform as well, as the manufacturers air filled tire. So your change was no improvement at all. It was a momentary fix that requires you to still repair the damage at some point and return to the manufacturers program or expect to have the problem again. So you see the tire design should be left to the people who are trained to do that. Your part was to drive the car, not to worry about how to re-engineer its components. The BSA calls it a "program" since it is theirs I suppose they have the right to call it what they want. If no one disagrees that the program works, then you do so many posters not follow the program?

John Daigler wrote "The pieces of excrement that Supply Division calls uniform parts today are designed to wear out in 6-12 months." I have to admit John that I wear a tan uniform shirt that I wore to the 1985 National Jamboree. My son wears one of my shirts and it was 7 years old before he got it. On average I am in uniform 2 or 3 nights a week and a weekend a month. Now I admit that my pants only last 2 or 3 years. Do you ever make use of the life-time warranty on the shirt and pants and send them back for replacement when you wear them out so unsually fast? (This message has been edited by Bob White)

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Thanks for the tune OGE, while your so close please put another log on the fire (by the way that's one of my favorite campfire songs). While I am here, let's make something clear. Neither, I nor anyone who has posted in suppport of the program, has ever said that the BSA was infallible, only that the program works, and that it's the BSA's program and they have the responsibility to determine the program, we as volunteers have a responsibility to deliver it. When I was growing up my parents made the rules in our home. Were they infallible? No, but it was their house and their responsibility to make the rules. We volunteered to be volunteers for our various charter organizations to deliver the BSA program for them. Not our program, but the BSA's. As long as we choose to live under the BSA umbrella we have a responsibility to deliver their program as they determine. When I struck out on my own and had my own home then I made the rules. When you start your own youth program you are welcome to do the same. Until then you have a responsibility to your charter organization, the BSA, and most of all to the youth to do what you said you would do and lead a BSA Scouting program.

62 posts later and still no one can give an example of using the program and it failing to work for them in their position. 62! BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Leaders enjoy recognition sometimes too, since it is not rank related or specified for youth only I would recognize the adults leaders accomplishment as well. BW

Which position do you feel you are best suited for and why?

Absolutely.

What if you only had one job to do and you enjoyed it would you stay?

Tooth of Time Traders sell a lot of merchandise not carried in the BSA catalog. Why? Because it is not a uniform piece it is a commemoratice peice. Tooth of Time Traders purchase it from the BSA supply division who by blanks (unadorned clothing) from manufactures or suppliers and the Supply Division emellishes the apparel themselves (they have their own silk screening and emproider shop) and the sell it to the ToTT who mark it up to whatever the market will bear. I am told that the sales at ToTT in the first few weeks of Trek season pays the Philmont ranch payroll for the entire year. You pay far more for the clothing at ToTT then you would at a camping sore at the mall and certainly far more than the field uniform costs. I fully expect to see a major uniform change in about 5 years to coincide with the 100th anniversary of the BSA. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

"My problem with that response is this: I can't see how such self-evaluation can realistically happen. It's really pretty easy. In a troop situation for instance... You read page one Of The Boy Scout Handbook on the promise of scouting and ask "do we do that?". You look at each section of the the Scoutmaster Handbook and ask your selves "Is that what we do?". You look at each of the Methods of Boy Scouting and ask "do we consider those in everything we do?" If the answer is no you ask yourselves "Why not? When can we begin?" One thing you should have noticed by now there are trained leaders who should know what they should be doing but have been doing it wrong for so long they think they are right. A little self evaluation could go a long way to making scouting better in the unit they serve. Bob White

JUST FOR THE RECORD AGAIN. What Backpacker just posted is hogwash. (that's scout leader talk for bald faced lie) I invite anyone to look at my last 75 posts just as an example. More than 75% of them speak only about the program and either ask or answer a scouting question. I wish it were more but then I have to post things like this because of other posters allergies to truth.

Zahanada I apologize for missing your closing line. It still does not change my position that it is scoutings program and they have the authority and the responsibility to make changes so that is can be done in a high quality with a proven track record of success and done on a nation release so that evry council and every leader and scout has the same resources. How do you play a nationwide bame if every team is making up its own rules to play by? What scout unit ever folded from doing things right?

Just for the record: Backpacker writes "I have repeatly have shared my troop successes using the program and supplementing it with some original ideas and all you do is criticize, so go do your thing and I will do mine." Well I was curious what those successes were. So I went back and read all 53 of his posts. In 3 posts he talks about his success in Scouting. In one it is about his Venture recruiting success and in two his use of mixed aged Patrols. Thats it!! 3 posts out of 53. So what did he write about the rest of the time. 10 posts he attacks other posters by name. 17 additional posts attack me personally 13 posts are non-scouting related The remaining 10 posts are of Backerpacker telling other scouts he agrees with them but offering no new information and certainly not sharing any successes. Where are all these items on successful scouting he says he has posted. I invite others to review just what the contents of his posts have actually been. So 40% of his posts attack other people, and 75% of his posts are not even Scouting related. Perhaps if you shared more scouting information we might find we agree more than we disagree. But who can tell from just three posts.

I really like Unc's explanaition. Scouting is tough to measure and might sometimes not take hold told years later. Most of the signs of scouting results we will never see. They happen quitely and without attention. When a boy makes the right decision when his peers are urging him to decide differently, scouting has succeeded. When someone helps an injured stranger because a quiet voice said to mim "help other people at all times." When a boy really sudies hard because his Den Leader taught him to do his best, Scouting happened in his life. Most of the measurements of scouting are quite personal moments that shape our lives. No one saw it, but scouting happened. When can you tell when it didn't. When a boy quits scouting because his troop meetings were boring, then he grows up and has boys of his own and nevr suggests scouting because he remembers it was boring. When a boy works toward his advancement and is denied it because his leader din't feel he was old enough yet to appreciate what it meant. So the scout was disheartened and left. When he became a father he never had his son join scouting because he remembered how he had been treated. The sad part is it wasn't scouting that did those things, it was leaders NOT following scouting.

But Champ OA is not a leadership position. It is a service opportunity and a recognition of scouting ideals. Is it your opinion that a 14 year old can represent the Oath and Law but a 13 year old cannot? Can a 14 year old give selfless service but a 13 year old cannot? What does an arbitrary age limit have to do with the purpose of the OA.

And for the past two and half years the BSA using professionals in the fields of of education, human behavior, and ledership development along with a select group of unit leaders from across the country evaluated, revised, tested, trained course directors, developed ne syllabii and released teh NAtional Juior Leader Development Tarining course rplacing the old JLTC. Which by the way has only a few of the 11 leadership skills resting heavily on team development and situational leadership skills. This way a scout who has oarticipated in NYLDT and adults who have participated in Wood Badge for the 21st Century will have a similar understanding and approach It even allows local councils to rearrange components to fit local needs. So will the scouts you serve get the old course re-worked by a couple of guys in the coouncil, or the new national training course that experts developed over the last two and half years?

Great tips timberscout!

Sorry Champ but you also truly believed that it was started to keep older boys in scouting, and it wasn't. It takes more than camping and rank, it takes character and the approval of your Scoutmaster and peers. If a person meets those requirements What difference does it make if he is 13 or 14? Why 14 what change takes place in that age group that would suddenly make a difference? BW PS. Clearify something for me please. Here are two quotes from you. Which is correct. "My Father Pushed and Pushed and Pushed me until I got my Eagle." " I could have gotten at probably 14 1/2 but my father slowed my progress up so I would not lose interest. Were you pushed or held back?

Backpacker what is so hard about changing the program and making it work? It's easy. You could play video games the entire time. The kids would show up in crowds, they would have a ball, you would be their hero and it still wouldn't be scouting. You could play basketball the entire time, the kids would show up they could learn teamwork, fitness, they'd have a great time and it still wouldn't be scouting. You could be in charge, make all the decisions, go neat places, wear a perfect uniform, set all the rules you want, and it still wouldn't be scouting. By the way where are all the people sharing their great successes in Scouting by not Scouting? They have had plenty of time to post? Heck Backpacker where are yours? Where are Its Me's? You both took the time to attack me yet neither of you bothered to respond to the question. Even Zahnada didn't answer his own question. Eagle90 doesn't want robots so he responds exactly like you and It's me rather than give an example he attacks me, wow what a bunch of free thinkers you are. Where are all these great "new" methods?

That still had nothing to do with the origins and purpose of the OA.

"The bottom line is OA was started to keep the older Scouts Active after they got infected with the "Fumes". " Sorry, Champ but that is not even close. First off the OA was started in 1915. The Model T was barely 7 years old. It would be a long time before driving and older scouts would collide. Read pages 15 through 17 of the OA Handbook for the real history and purpose that started the OA.

It's Me Everyone gets involved in this board for their own reasons. I got involved after lurking for several weeks and seeing all the misinformation that was being given about the BSA program. Other posters using their "experience" as a licence to ignore the truth and perpetuate folklore, gossip, and misrepresntations of the Scouting program. I got involved for one reason. To say "here are facts, here are books or the training that you will find them in". I have never said here is "my way" as some others do. I have always said "here is the scouting program, here is how it works, I tried it and it works, I have helped others learn it and it works. The program works" You want to discuss other methods. My question is, if the program works why do you need to something else? If you can't get it to work for you but others have, why not ask "How can I do it better" rather than "how can I change it"? That's what I don't get. I am very patient ant tolerant and willing to help others who want to know how to deliver a real scouting program. I will and do spend whatever time with them they want or need. I will llend them resourses, equipment, go to their place, have them come to mine, whatever they want. So my intolerance is limited to the imposters who wear the uniform but don't take or use the training. Who break the promise of scouting made to kids by changing the program to what some so arrogantly say "here is the way I do it in MY unit" You wnat to do your own program fine! Get your own uniform, make up your own name for the group and knock yourself out. Maybe you will be trustworthy and follow a program better there. Maybe you will be loyal, and keep your new promise to the kids in that program, because you do not seem to want to do it in this one or you wouldn't be spending time changing it.

Forget about appeasing old-timers it's not their program. You should care about giving Scouts the program they were promised. When the program has changed it was the BSA that changed it. They do it through study, application, and controlled testing. You just can't have everyone doing their own version and have any consistent, expected, results. I get called arrogant for saying stick to the program. The arrogance is in the individuals who think they know how to run a youth program better than the BSA. That's arrogance. The people who ignore what is in the Boy's handbooks and do what they want because it's "their" unit, that's arrogance. The same people who can't keep a single unit healthy for 5-years think they know better than an organization that has lasted nearly 100. Who cares if you have 10 years, 45, or 80 years experience? My backpack has 27 years of experience in scouting, and it wouldn't make a very good scout leader. If what you have done over the years isn't leading the BSA Scouting program then all you have is experience wearing the uniform, I have hangers that can do that. District Volunteers spend 80% of their time cleaning up the messes that the geniuses who do their own thing create. Most the threads on this board deal with solving problems created by leaders not following the program. Next explain to me why anyone wearing the wreath of service isn't saying the same thing.

If you wanted to do your own thing why did you join an "organization" that had a national "program" with specific "methods" that you agreed to follow? The BSA doesn't need robots to have good leaders. You have to be able to think to lead. What it needs are dedicated volunteers who will deliver the scouting program and not "their own" program. Why is that asking so much?