Bob White

There has yet to be an example where changing the troop brought success in this thread. But here is your chance Ed! Why don't YOU share one of of YOUR examples. You are always crowing about how it's ok to "tweak" the program, and shared how YOU do things, in YOUR troop. Share with us some of your favorite tweaks and the success you have reaped from them. Share with us your "success" Ed. How did you do it?

What office do you hold in the troop?

You can cook most anything in a reflector that you would make in an oven at home. The thing to remember that makes reflector cooking different from other styles is that you need flames for your heat source. All other cooking styles do best with hot coals as they produce a more consistent heat, but a reflectors needs flames. Also remember that you lose efficiency in colder weather. You have to deal with the delta factor, the amount of heat lost to the surrounding air. In colder weather it will require more heat and longer cooking times. BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Just sign my name to Eamonn's post BW

It is easily answerably with a yes or no response. Either you have or haven't had success by changing the program. If you have then you should be able to explain what you did. It is not hypothetical as there is no conjecture involved, no imiginary situation to respond to. This is a real life situation that you had or did not have. It is not circular in that the premise is not based on the conclusion. And so far no one has given an example.

The Boy receives the temporary upon completioon of the application. He is a member once the application is processed at the council office.

In the shadows, fine. Out of the line of sight of the boys, fine. The boys out of line of your site? Not a chance at this stage. If the adults present cannot control themselves ask them to leave. But the Scoutmaster needs to be where the a ction is during troop meetings, troop activities and PLCs. You cannot direct,coach or counsel if you are not present to evaluate the action. A minimum number of adults present I am all for. The fewer the better. But the Scoutmaster is a part of the PLC. He or she has 3 specific responsibilities during those meetings and they cannot be done without being in the meeting. I am deeply enamored by this scouting stuff, Bob White

I believe your memory may be playing tricks on you. YP is only available from local council servers because the training requires each council to customize it to reflect local contact information state and local authority contact information. The National site only directed you to the council site. Boy Scout Fast Start is still there at http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/faststart/ Cub Scout Fast Start is http://www.scouting.org/cubscouts/faststart/ (This message has been edited by Bob White)

OGE That was discussed at our council training committee meeting, as a matter of fact I brought it up. I thought it best to have the discussion and have the decision come from us rather than be handed to us by the SE. It was the unanimous decion of the volunteers the professional advisor and the Assistant SE that we not do it. The overwhelmind sentiment was that leadership should be a positive experience that one chooses to do rather than one is forced to do. When you think aboutr it if we have a Sm training and only three SM show up we have influenced scouting to approximately 200 boys over the next few years. Thats not so bad. BW

I will attempt to answer some of your questions. "How do we ensure we have sufficient access to training?" Go to the District committee meeting and pound your fist on the table and demand that basic training be made available and frequent. "even when training is available, it is quite difficult to get people to commit to going to it. Darn tootin it is! Here is the closest solution I have found as the District Training Chair with the most trained leaders in the council. Do training often and be glad that if even on person shows up that is one more trained leader out there infuencing dozens if not hundrds of boys. "How does a unit go about setting realistic and proper expectations for the training of its leaders?" When a leader is selected you tell them you have three expectation, 1) they will get training for their position, 2)They will wear a complete and correct Uniform. 3)They will do their best to deliver the program and you will help them to do it. "What level of training is needed for committee members?" New Leader essentials and either Troop Commitee challenge if a troop member or Pack Committee Job Specific training if a pack committee member. for parents? None is required and unless they showed they needed it I wouldn't do any. They should be able to learn from your example what the program is all about. "for SM and ASM? New Leader Essentials Scoutmaster/Asst.Scoutmaster Leader Specific training. Introduction to Outdoor Skills (Wood Badge would be GREAT) "How quickly should leaders be expected to become trained? Within 90-days of taking office. "How can I get others to go along to be trained as well?" The same way you eat an elephant...one bite at a time. Litle nudges, warm invitations, setting the example of good scouting, speak well of the experience, keep people informed in advance of opportunities, Never quit trying. Hope this helps, Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

I will attempt to answer some of your questions. "How do we ensure we have sufficient access to training?" Go to the District committee meeting and pound your fist on the table and demand that basic training be made available and frequent. "even when training is available, it is quite difficult to get people to commit to going to it. Darn tootin it is! Here is the closest solution I have found as the District Training Chair with the most trained leaders in the council. Do training often and be glad that if even on person shows up that is one more trained leader out there infuencing dozens if not hundrds of boys. "How does a unit go about setting realistic and proper expectations for the training of its leaders?" When a leader is selected you tell them you have three expectation, 1) they will get training for their position, 2)They will wear a complete and correct Uniform. 3)They will do their best to deliver the program and you will help them to do it. "What level of training is needed for committee members?" New Leader essentials and either Troop Commitee challenge if a troop member or Pack Committee Job Specific training if a pack committee member. for parents? None is required and unless they showed they needed it I wouldn't do any. They should be able to learn from your example what the program is all about. "for SM and ASM? New Leader Essentials Scoutmaster/Asst.Scoutmaster Leader Specific training. Introduction to Outdoor Skills (Wood Badge would be GREAT) "How quickly should leaders be expected to become trained? Within 90-days of taking office. "How can I get others to go along to be trained as well?" The same way you eat an elephant...one bite at a time. Litle nudges, warm invitations, setting the eaxample of good scouting, speak well of the experience, keep people informed in advance of opportunities, Never quit trying. Hope this helps, Bob White

I agree with the vast majority of Barry's post except for one important point. Please, don't leave the room. You cannot evaluate what you do not observe, You can't caoch if you are not their with him. Once the scout has reached the point where his skill level and the task allow you to delegate rather than direct, coach, or counsel, then you can leave. But the guys you described are not ready for that yet.

"I see a big difference between a tweak to program elements (ie., mixed-aged patrols, which BSA rules do not prohibit), and adding to advancement requirements, which violates BSA rules." So the marker we use is 'if it doesn't violate a policy then it is OK to change'? That makes it OK to change not only the Patrol Method but ANY method since the methods are not governed by any policies. So I could change the points of the Scout Law? Drop Duty to God from the Oath? I could change the Outdoor Code to say "I will trespass only when I want to." That doesn't break a rule. We could eliminate using any advancement since the rules don't say you have to have an advancement program. We can stop going camping alltogether because not going is not against the rules. We don't need to promote a uniform, thats not against any rule. We don't have to elect youth leaders, thats not against any rule. We don't have to teach character, citizenship or fitness because that doesn't violate any rule. So why worry about changing the Patrol method, it is no more or no less important than any other method and changing it doesn't violate any rules. You worry because it is the methods that make scouting, scouting. When you change the methods you change the program, and it is our job to deliver it, not to change it.

Yes, If he has been through the Den Chief training course.

Backpacker, You have yet to represent what I think accurately of honestly to this point so please do not give the impression that you have the slightest insight into me. By the way I have tried twice to send you a PM regarding a Wood Badge question, and have not recieved a response. Perhaps you private messaging is not set up correctly. BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I guess I see it as things you will need and things you might want. Different people will need different things. SM and Assistants Training Scoutmaster Handbook The Boy Scout Handbook Patrol Leader Handbook Senior Patrol Leader Handbook 1st Class Tracking Sheets Troop Program Resources book Troop Progam Features (3 books) Merit Badge Counselor list Merit Badge Blue Cards BSA Field Book Cooking for Small Groups Scout Song Book Charter organization Calendar District/Council Calendar Scoutmaster Junior Leader Training Syllabus & video Merit Badge Library Merit Bagde poster Religious Awards poster Out Door Code poster Medical Forms (completed) Patrol rosters Tote n' chip cards Fire n' chit cards Troop Committee Training Troop Committee Guide Boy Scout Handbook Advancement Commitee Policies and Procedures Manual Insignia Guide Scout Catalog Charter organization Calendar District/Council Calendar Troop Finance Book/Troop Record Book OR Troopmaster software Selecting and Recruiting Quality Leaders pamphlet Historic Trails brochure A good book on campgrounds in your region Adult ApplicationsYouth Applications Advancement Wall Chart Troop Roster Medical Forms (blank) Camp Use forms Tour Permits Advancement report forms Merit Badge Counselor Applications The list of non-BSA program materials I could recommend is nearly endless. BW:)

Dan asks "What would lead you to believe that he would have?" The evidence created by the tens of millions of scouts before him that did. BW

OOPS thanks Eagle I missed the duplication. So I'm back to my post before I edited it. Dan, What leads you to believe that your son would not have developed those qualities had the Scoutmaster not violated advancement policies?

EagleInKY As explained in NLE, it's the same recruitment process for any situation. I have seen it used for every adult need in scouting. Pullingmyhairout, Do not get down on yourself about the job you have done, as you point out you have been doing several at once and very few people are going to be successful at that. What you need to choose is one position and only one. Do not worry about what happens with the ones you leave benind, there are others responsible for filling those. If you like working with the kids be a den leader and nothing else. If you want to help support the program and are good at organizing and motivating others be the committee chair. If you would rather do one task like advancement or ceremomnies then be a committee member. The life of the unit is not on your shoulders, that is the charter organization and Charter Organaization Representatives responsibility, they can deal with it or not as they choose. You need to find what part you want to play and focus on that. Guilt is not a method of the BSA. You should be having fun too. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

So Dan let me ask this. What exactly do you think the scoutmaster changed? If he held the leadership position as required. If he did the service hours as required If he did a Scoutmaster assigned service project to benefit the troop as required. What was not according to the program? (This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

What strikes me first is the phrase "The Troop would quickly fall apart without adult intervention." It's as if the adults had no purpose for being there. The adults are supposed to intervene, just not during the meeting. The Scoutmaster needs to be evaluating how to help the SPL in his job and providing the needed support. There are any number of reasons that the SPL is not taking the lead in the PLC. It would be difficult if not impossible for us to know from here. But what is clear is he needs help and that's why we train Scoutmasters.

drkellog, There is no such thing as merging units in scouting. You can quit a unit and join a different one. The Charter Organization can end or not renew a charter forcing the members to join another unit if they wish to continue in scouting. But Charters cannot be merged, and the charter belongs to the CO not the volunteer leaders so PMHO has no control over the charter. Bob White

What Life Project with a write-up?

"You need to work at your recruiting skills. This is, unfortunately, one area that the BSA doesn't provide much in the way of training." You are mistaken EagleInKY, not only are there 4-page brochures covering how to recruit adults. "Selecting Quality Leaders", but part of New Leader Essentials traing covers the process. The brouchures are free and available through your local Scout office. They are step by step guides and easy to follow. The advice given in New Leader Essentials is related to this pamphlet. Pullyingmyhairout. Have you given consideration to my last question? If you just did one role in the pack what would you choose and why? Bob White

Ed when will you understand that this is not about what I do? It is about the personal responsibility of a BSA volunteer to follow the BSA program. You and others keep trying to make this about what I do. I do what Eamonn and OGE and and a number of others on this board and across the country do we learn and deliver the scouting program. Not because we are different or special, because we aren't. We took on a role as a scoutleader and agreed to follow the policies, programs, and procedures of the BSA and so we do. This is not rocket science, its a decision one either makes or rejects. Why you of all people aren't embracing this is beyond me.