Bob White

the larks head does not require working ends. You can recreate it with a large rubber band and a ring. Imagine the ring as the loop on the bottom of the banner, The rubber band as the rope. Pass a bend of the rubber band through the ring. now take it under the ring and through the other bend of the rubber band. Pull. The rubber band is now attached to the ring. look at this knot compared to the image of the First Class Badge. They are the same. Its a larks head..really it is. For it to be an overhand knot it would have to have two working ends, it does not, it is a loop anchored to a ring.

Shark writes "You seem to be saying that ALL troops were experienceing the problems that led to the creation of New Scout Patrols, and First Class/First Year Program." That is you inference and incorrect. I have never said that or suggested it. What I said was that the BSA found that scouts who were in same age patrols and that achieved First Class withing the first 14 months state in Scouting longer than scouts who did not. "These troops that did maintain membership are also saying, "Why would you expend the time and energy to change what works". Because the program belongs to the BSA and they are constantly testing and improving it to better fior the needs of todays members. As unit volunteers we deliver the program not alter it willy-nilly. "Why risk doing something that might not work? Has changing it worked for your troop Ed?" This has been a common theme in many of your statements both to, and about Ed recently. Are you certain that Ed changed to mixed aged patrols? That depends on your source. In Ed's posts he says he uses mixed aged patrols (plural), on Ed's Website it showed he had a mixed age patrol (singular) Ed's troop lost so many scouts over the last two years that according to the troop web site there is only one patrol, and yes it is a mixed aged one. For all any of us know, Ed may have experienced tremendous success with mixed aged patrols for many years prior to stepping down. All Ed has ever posted is "Here is what I do in MY troop". If others deserve credit there would be no way to tell by his posts. He has yet to even admit that a problem exists, or offer to try the scouting program as a way to stem the exodus. Acording to his website he was the scoutmaster during the time period that the troop experienced the decline. I am only going by the information Ed has shared. If that information is flawed you will need to take that up with Ed. "The only thing that is obvious, is that there is ALWAYS more than one way to skin a cat. Every Troop Program is different to a degree within the BSA. Every troop does not have the same successes, problems, failures, resources, or even boy personalities. Every troop can have the same successes, if that were not true there would be no purpose to having the Scouting program. It is designed to produce specific reoccurring successes. Certainly you have noticed through the forum and through observing other units that many of the problems experienced by a unit have been experienced by others in the past, or are current problems, or will be future problems. Thats why the BSA does the studies, to develop program elements and resources to help units avoid those common pitfalls. But the units have to actually follow the program for it to work. I have never said that each unit program has to be identical. Different packs troops and posts will go different places do different things, sing different songs play different games. But they can still all follow the Scouting methods and still each be unique. You do not have to change the BSA program to be different or to solve problems. It's by using the scouting methods that you can be unique and still be successful in delivering the BSA proigram and avoid many of the problems we see on this forum and in our own scouting communities. "I can see that; in rural areas where boys of varying age groups are placed together in school or athletics quite often, it would be more suitable to utilize mixed aged patrols," I would like a specific example of an athletic program where 17 year olds compete with 10 1/2 year olds. Or a school where they are in the same class learning the same thing. That is the problem with mixed aged patrols, you cannot give one program to meet the needs of each Age/ability group. You are either boing one segment or above the ability level of the other. "No system is perfect in all situations, ncluding the BSA." You would have to learn it and then practice it before you can make that decision. It seems a number of posters are adverse to either let alone both. We are talking about what works best, not what works perfectly. "Our troop is experiencing tremendous success with 3 mixed aged patrols and 1 Venture Patrol, where we define success as high percentages of happy boys in all age groups staying in the troop while advancing, leading, and grasping the Ideals we are trying to impart. We had an interesting speaker at Philmont a couple summers back. He came from a family of pro and college basketball stars. Every evening his entire family was playing basketball in the driveway. But he didn't. he wanted to be a Boy Scout. He bought his own handbook, and practiced his skills while his father and siblings practiced basketball and teased him about wanting to be a Boy Scout. When he turned 11 he put on his uniform and headed to the school where the local troop met. He new some guys from school who told him about the monthly camping trips and the fun they had. The troop had 60 boys, the largest troop in town. He got to the meeting opened the dors and do you know what the guys were doing??? That's right, playing basketball. They played all meeting long. They played all meeting long every week. The campouts were always to the same place every month. But they were HAPPY, and they STAYED IN THE TROOP... and he quit after one meeting. And never went back again. Scouting isn't just having boys in the unit and it isn't just having fun. Scouting is the Methods of Scouting used to achieve the Aims and Mission of scouting. Anything else is just Doing Stuff in a scout uniform. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

First you have to overcome any personal preconceived notions that scout age youth are lazy and apathetic. Scouting is different from anything else they have ever doe (if you follow the program). If the scouts are doing what you think they should it's because they don't know what you are thinking and they do not need to. You need to know what they are thinking so that you can help direct their energy to make their ideas into plans and heir plans into actions. They are telling you they need more help at this stage. I spoke with River2k on the phone for a while the other day and he has a PLC coming up this weekend, lets see how things go. BW

Does anyone recall from Scoutmaster Training or from Boy Scout Fast Start, or from the Scoutmaster Handbook what the Scoutmaster's responsibility is just before and just after each troop meeting? BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

An overhand knot would require two working ends. This is a loop pulled through a loop on the bottom of the banner. It really is a larks head. While the text may call it an overhand knot, it is in image a larks head. Now if you want a trickier one, what is the knot that hangs from the bottom of the banner on the Eagle Scout medal, because it is not the same knot. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Excellent KS!!! That is exactly how it is taught in SM Training. My heart bubbles with delight!!! It's late it looks like the election is decided. My faith in leadership is restored I now head to bed. BW

I was simply relating the content of the ceremony from the American Leagion. I make no claim to their authority on the matter.

Fuzzy I have no idea what you are taking about. I share you frustration in this conversation. I cannot understand how people pound their chest and declare their dedication to a program that they change at will into something different. I am especially bewildered by those who change back to the program and do not even know it. A scout is friendly but a scout is also Loyal and brave and stands up for what he believes is right. I believe that standing up for the program is the right thing to do. I do not accept that someone who refuses to follow the program dispite scouts quitting their troop in huge numbers is "doing the best he can". If he refuses to follow the program how can it be said he is doing his best. The closest I have come to really unfriendly is when I pointed out two posters who lied. A couple people accused me of calling people names. If a thief breaks into my house and I call him a thief, is that a bad thing? If I see him in another persons home and I warn them that that person is a thief, is that a bad thing? I do not use liar lightly, when I point him out it is to warn others of the danger before thay are harmed as well. Fuzzy we do not agree on a number of things. The biggest difference I see is I don't talk from what "I say scouting is" I share what the resources and training materials and handbooks say what scouting is. If thats a problem with anyone, then that's their problem. I have not attacked anyone personally only challenged their methods as opposed to the scouting methods. Some on the other hand when they lack the content to defend their position switch immediately to calling me names and making base comments about my loyalty to a program. That to me is unfriendly. Have a good night BW

FScouter, Have you had the opportunity to attend Scoutmaster/Assistant Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training yet? BW

"For all intents and purposes, there is no on-line fast start training." I gotta disagree on that FScouter. If you even go to Google.com and enter Cub Scout Fast Start, the first link it gives you is on the national BSa site. The Same is true of Boy Scout Fast Start. For all intents and purposes it's there, it just isn't a great search engine yet at the national site. BW

You can find a very nice ceremomy on the national site for the American Legion. It is one I have seen on several occasions and that the troop has used a few times. I will warn you it also cuts the stripes off from the union and separates the stripes. (you never cut up the union) BW

Just curious about some points. What element of the PLC made it boring? Who were all these adults you surveyed when the SM is the only adult to be in the PLC? Who is responsible for keeping control of the PLC? It's not the SPL The last 45 minutes were not productive? Who is reponsible for the agenda for the PLC? The longest PLC the program teaches is 90 minutes. Did you know the program is designed for 5 to 6 PLCs a month, for a total of about two hours? "The SPL could keep up with the Patrols performance a lot easier" Is that a reponsibility of the SPL? Where is that found? The problems you had stemmed from not following the program. The good news What you did was change to something closer to the program then you had been doing. The bad news You didn't realize it.

The UW does not send money to an organization just because you name them. That group still has to prove their validity as a registered 501-c roganization.

As someone in that industry I can tell you that is a very fair price considering the limited quantity and the fact that most embroiderers would add a miinimum $45 digitizing fee. You could try shopping around but you probably will not find a better deal on that particular item. BW

While a scoutmaster the Troop I served hosted the National Court of Honor for the nation's one millionth Eagle Scout. That was pretty cool.

It's a Lark's Head.

Thats a great success, but I don't see its relationship to teaching Whittlin' Chip ayear early? I also miss how giving them the information early is altering the methods of Cub Scouting. Of course I would hope you would at least refresh their memory with a revisit to the safety and use of knives.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

You keep saying its OK Ed but you still haven't given a single example of when you did and it worked. Even the person who started the thread hasn't. Ed this thread was practically designed for you. You are a huge proponent for tweaking. We have a thread asking for an example of how using the Scouting program ever failed...no one could come up with one. We have a thread on when changing the program worked...No one could come up with one. Ed would you consider starting a thread asking for examples of "How using the program as designed by the BSA succeeded"? Do you think it would be able to get more examples than we have seen on the two threads combined so far? Is that not reason enough to stick to the methods of the program? Why not give it a try Ed. You host the thread and let's see what happens. Vote Early, Vote often, Bob White

Hunt writes "Do we all have to sell popcorn to be delivering the scouting program the boys were promised?" Popcorn sales is not a method of scouting, the patrol method is. Popcorn sales is not a BSA national program it is a council activity, BSA national has nothing to do with Popcorn sales. Popcorn sales does not appear in any leadership training, adult handbook, or youth handbook in scouting. The Patrol method does. Outdoor activities, advancement, uniforming, the Ideals, they are all Methods of scouting. So they are indeed related and equal. If tweaking with one is Okay then so must tweaking with others. If you do not agree then show me the rule that says otherwise, afterall that seems to be the mantra here. 'If there is no rule then it must be okay', right? So where do you find you can change the patrol method but nothing else? Who controls the national tweaking button?

I found them through the search engine. I will say they were not indexed in the easiest way, but they were there.

"Show us where the BSA prohibits mixed age patrols? Show us where the BSA states the NSP MUST be used?" For the umpteenth time Ed, It doesn't say that. We all agree it doesn't say that. Find me one post where I have ever claimed to be an expert on anything. All the BSA suggests is 'this is the program and it works'. 'Do this and you will have a scouting program'. Why would you expend the time and energy to change what works, and what Scouting says is Scouting? Why risk doing something that might not work? Has changing it worked for your troop Ed? I am not the expert, the BSA is, I did nothing more than what thousands have done and continue to do...follow the program. I just don't understand your resentment about that, or your determination to continue to do things differently when it has obviously not worked.

Ed I am confounded by the degree of exaggeration that you seem to puposely use in your posts. Ed writes "Bob, Do you think I am that monumentally stupid? I ask you Ed, have I ever said you were monumentally stupid? Can you or anyone else find a post where I called you monumentally stupid? The thought that perhaps you were monumentally stupid has never even crossed my mind let alone my keyboard. I am sure there is a reason that you do not answer questions about successful scouting but I have never considered monumental stupidity as even remotely related to it. I think it is for the same reason that I don't post on micropaleontology. I would hope that you could still respond without these gross exaggerations. BW

Ed I am confounded by the degree of exaggeration that you seem to puposely use in your posts. Ed writes "Bob, Do you think I am that monumentally stupid? I ask you Ed, have I ever said you were monumentally stupid? Can you or anyone else find a post where I called you monumentally stupid? The thought that perhaps you were monumentally stupid has never even crossed my mind let alone my keyboard. I am sure there is a reason that you do not answer questions about successful scouting but I have never considered monumental stupidity as even remotely related to it. I just think you lack content on this particular topic. But that aside, I would hope that you could still respond without these gross exaggerations. BW

My apologies to both EagleDad and EagleInKY for getting your names confused. Mia Culpa. From where a Bobwhite sits all you high soaring birds look alike! See Ed I have no problem admitting when I make a mistake. But let's get back to the topic. You seem to be custom made to answer Zahnada's question. You have frequently posted of how you don't see the methods written in stone and being flexible to interpretation. You have often shared how you do things differently from the training and handbooks, but you never told us the results. Share just one to prove Zahnada's point for him. Tell us of your successes by not using the program as it was developed to be used. You were unable to give an example of how using the program ever failed, so this is your chance to shine. Wow us!

Actually, what the SM training and the Scoutmaster Handbook say is "There are three types of patrols, Regular, New Scout, and Venture patrols. Which type and how many depend on the ages of the scouts, their interests, and their needs. No where does the BSA recommend organizing patrols by mixed ages. It says similar ages and interests. Does it violate a rule? No. Neither does not using the advancement program, not going camping or not learning the Oath or Law. Like the Patrol Method these are not mandated by any policy, but it would not be scouting without them. If "tweaking is OK" then who determines what tweaking is and when it has gone too far. How many scouts will leave the program before someone tweaks it back into being scouting? EagleDad in his example did not change the program he was working toward it. I don't think anyone has a problem with that. Others however know the program and work away from because they see a "better" way. I think lots of people have a big problem with that because it ends up chasing scouts away. Still others refuse to even learn the program as if it is something they can make up themselves or stumble upon as they meander blindly through boring meetings leaving a trail of "former" scouts in their wake. The best, most consistent way to have a good program is to follow the Scouting program. everyone nods in agreement and then several post "well here is how we do it instead". Ed is fortunate that someone of OGE's abilities would speak for him. BUT, Ed seems capable of speaking for himself. Let's hear Ed explain how his changes in the program have succeeded in his troop.