Bob White

What message would that be? If you complete the requirements you will advance, and if you don't complete them you won't, but I will help you make a plan to get there? BW

I would talk to the scout. I would ask him if he actively served in a troop position. If he says yes, I would ask for examples. I would ask if he was active for 6 months since becoming a Star Scout. If he says yes I would ask for examples. If his explainations make sense, and I believed he completed the requirements then I would pass him. If he says no to either question then I would say "let's make a plan for you to complete these requirements." Do you think that work for you?

Did he complete all the requirements?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

And in a smaller community with fewer outlets and fewer units perhaps having info arriving from each unit would work. Is it? I can tell you that in a rural area like ours where the district is 140 miles long and 60 miles wide serving 117 units, grass roots helter skelter PR won't get the job done. I would have to think however that no matter what your area that a more professional approach would almost have to be more effective. These are the sorts of htings that district committees are built to do. Just becasue you do not have a resouce to recruit doesn't mean that the district committee would not. Let them know your needs, that is what they are there for. I would bet kids would rather have great meetings than their names in the paper. Why use a unit's limited resourses for something other than delivering a fun program? BW

Proud Eagle, What is a grass roots PR effort? Multiple units with multiple stories being distributed in multiple formats to a multiple number of people in multiple media outlets? As I said, marketing is a skill and science as are most mass communication occupations. If you want to be effective in your public relations efforts you need to accept and respect that. To get your information on air or published on time and effectively you need to understand the elements that each mdia outlet need to be efficient at their end. Why don't scouts get more publicity? If in your area you are using a grass roots effort and its not working, that's why. If each unit is sending in their own stuff in a variety of formats it is going to look like chaos to the media and they are going to 86 all of it. There is a reason that the district and council committees exist. The unit's job is to deliver scouting. Why would each unit extend energies and resources away from that responsibility, when it could be done better and more efficiently on a larger scale by the support services of the district/council?

Spell check gave out before the final paragraph. It should have read... Don't worry if everyone is not ready for the same recognition at the same time. That is not what the advancement program is about. As boys are ready to be recognized... do it.

PR and other marketing avenues are both a skill and a science. The best way to get good PR is to recruit a volunteer or volunteers onto the district and council committees that are trained and experienced in that field. Why try to figure out how to do something, in addition to your other responsibilities, that someone else is already trained to do? Recruit them to do what they do best. BW

Not everything in scouting is controlled by rules. Most things are not. This is one of those things that isn't. AOL and crossovers are handled differently in different units. The most common, in my experience, is that you have two distinct ceremonies. One for AOL and one for crossing into Boy Scouts. Do which ever ceremomy or ceremonies are appropriate, for whichever scout, at the time they meet the requirements. So if everyone is ready for AOL fine have a ceremony for all of them. If only three are ready to join a troop have a crossover for those three. Later if one or two more select a troop and are ready to leave then do the ceremony again for them. Don't worry if everyone is ready for the same recognistion at the same time. That is not what the advancement program is about. As boys are ready to be recocognized... doit. BW

When I was a cubmaster the dens kept their numbers but made a new den flag each year. You do not have to use the store bought patrol pennants. They are there as a convenience if you want to use them.

They are a spectator until you make them a participant. Kids are used to being made to sit still and listening to aduls. We train them that way in school, at home, visiting relatives at church. To kids, when in the company of adults, this is a sit and listen world. To make matters worse, far too many scout meetings are sit and listen programs. Is it any wonder kids don't show up for scouting when it is more of the same sit and listen that they do all day long at school. To say as a defense, "yeah but this one was different" isn't going to make a difference. They all have to be different. Scouts have to expect that having a great meeting is the norm not the exception. We need to quit looking for outside forces to solve our problems. When it comes to the program, we are the solution, the unit volunteer. Do not expect anyone, or anything else to make your meetings fun for scouts. Do not expect others to change, do not expect the world to change. If your meetings are not keeping the scouts coming back for more...then you have to change.

If a group of performers have a show to do, does the attendance in the audience get to determine the quality of the show, or are the performers expected to put on the same high quality show regardless of how may spectators arrive? A Scout unit cannot excuse the quality of its program based o how many scouts show up. The ones that come expect, and deserve, the best show in town. As word spreads on the consistent quality of the show, more people come to see it. As word spreads of the consistent quality of unit program, more will attend, and join. You cannot concern yourself with the other choices a youth has for activities. There will always be other choices. If you follow the scouting program you can be the BEST choice. Isn't that the best recruitment and retention tool? BW

I can do it PM or on this thread Ron which do you prefer?

It may often appear that council and district boundaries follow county lines but in fact they usually follow school district borders. Since school districts, for government funding purposes, and tax purposes, are usually encapsulated into a single county it makes the scout maps at first glance appear to be divided that way. Council borders are determined by the BSA regional offices and councils are restricted from dipping into nearby councils for money, manpower or membership. Districts are specific geographic subsets of a council for the pupose of easier local administration. They are determined by the council executive board and the SE absed on youth population and financial resources as well as other consideration. Unless you district has 100% of the available youth involved in scoutig within your own district, there is no reaon to be dipping into a neighboring district for theirs. If you know of an untapped pocket where scouting could be introduced outside of your own area of adminiutsration, the proper thing to do would be to contact the District professional for that community and direct them there.

I guess I do not see it as the red states as "not ready" for the majority of the Democrat's social agenda. That implies that the Republicans as a group will eventually change to accept them. That will not happen. What you have are two very different philosophies, and while a few may change from one side of the coin to the other, you will not see either side totally embrace the the other sides concepts. That doesn't mean that one side isn't right.

I agree with fotoscout

Back Packer, You are obviously not as familiar with my posts as you say. Otherwise, you would know that I do not have a troop... my son does, he is the scout. I serve his troop as an Assistant Scoutmaster. I have given facts about this unit a couple of times is the past but very seldom. The reason is I have no intention of giving the impression that anyone should lead the way I lead, or to do exactly as my son's troop does. My focal point is always on following the BSA program and no one else's. But I have always honestly answered any direct questions about my background and will answer yours as well. What would you like to know? How will my experience affect your responsibility to deliver the BSA program? How would the depth of my experience validate the scouting methods, when the BSA has the most exerience than anyone on this forum and you fail to believe them? I asked you who your conference director was in "02" at Philmont and you told me. I am curious what course you took, and what was the most important thing you felt you learned from it.

You have mentioned "area" and "county" but you have not mentioned the important lines. District and council boundaries. Is the school within your district? Is it within your council?

Hunt, some of the questions are for a better understanding of what the person is saying, some of it is for clarification because the poster has said two different things and I am trying to understand which is accurate. Some questions are because not everyone on the board is who or what they say they are, and you should want to know who those people are. Now to the important stuff. As a unit, a trainer and from many years on the commissioning staff I could fill many pages with instances of how returning to the scouting methods and procedures have helped units succeed. I would expect Eamonn and OGE could do the same. But I could give a you a few quick ones. A local pack was about to fold because of lack of adult help. I was asked to meet with the committee to help. I gave them copies of "Selecting Quality Leaders" and walked them through the process. In less than two weeks they selected and registerd 9 new adult leaders and the Pack is flourishing today. A troop of 11 scouts was having problems with retention. Troops around them in their community were all growing and theirs was not. Following a roundtable presentation the troop instituted a more rigid Patrol Method including using the three levels of patrols. Four years later they were more than 50 strong. A pack having difficulting keeping boys interested during the pack meeting rearranged the room to be like a recommended floor plan from the cub leaders handbook and followed the agendas from program helps. The adults and youth both behaved better because of the new arrangement and were able to enjoy the program more because of their proximity to the action and sight lines. In addition by practically eliminating announcements all together, and focussing on activities centered on the cubs, they found that attendance improved. A troop that went from 2 courts of honor a year to one per quarter, found that the scouts were more motivated to advance and communications with the parents increased. A survey of 48 troops in a district showed that the ones who used First Class Emphasis had larger troops, much higher retention rates of first year scouts, recruited more webelos each year, and had more 15 to 17 year old scouts than troops that did not use the First Class emphasis program. As A trainer I consistantly hear leaders say things like "That would be so much easier than how we do it now" when they learn scouting administrative and operational procedures. A District that had 5 to 8 leaders attend Boy Scout Roundtable changed to the BSA RT agenda and curriculumn and within 9 months had 68 leaders attend and 98% of the troops represented.(That agenda by the way is modeled after a troop meeting agenda) But what has really made an impression on me are the scouts that come from units that follow the program as compared to those that do not. Boys that belong to units that use scouting are not ashamed for people to know they are scouts, they are active in school and community, they don't think scout meetings are boring, that don't act bored at meetings. They carry themselves with more confidence. These are not my only examples, but just a few. As I say I could do several pages of examples like this, unfortunately I can do several pages on units that used to exist that did not follow the program. What I cannot do is offer an example of following the program and having it fail, in all the years as a leader I have never seen that happen. BW

Then can we all agree that there are a varietye of representations and ones opinion of what the knot is could greatly influenced by which version you are seeing? But we all agree that the symbolism is of an overhand knot and for the resons expressed in the handbook. (and you thought I was incapable of compromise!)

And what training course in '02' was this BackPacker? "You on the other hand I know nothing about your scout training or experience and whose credibility is highly suspect. Well if there is anything you want to know just ask. What would you have to know that would possibly change your evaluation of me? My credibility is of little importance since I have never said "Here is what I do you, should do it me way". All I have done is shared what is in the BSA resources and training. What would it take for you to find credibility in the methods of Scouting? I still have not recieved a reply to my PMs to you so if it is alright I will ask my question here. You have said you were on staff for WB I was curious what staff position you served in?

From e-bay. Neck ties are no longer a part of the current Field Uniform.

There we go with the exaggeraions again Back Packer. "I think the number of challenges you have received on this thread from many different scouters proves my point" Where do you get many different scouters from? There is you and Ed, and you twe would disagree with me if I said elevators went up and down. Eagledad who who still hasn't seen that what he did was move closer to the scouting program not furher away. And Beaver who usually agrees and works to follow the program. So if we drop you two knee jerk contrarians this is really just a debate between me and EagleDad. So what course did you take at PTC Back Packer and who was the course leader? Also quoting unamed sources is not a very good way to support a point. Who exactly from PTC were you quoting?

Got a question for the political "Why can't we all get a long" believers. When forged papers where presented as if they were fact, even when everyone knew the info was phoney, should the person who was attacked say "OK well everyone is entitled to their opinion." Or did he have a right to say "there is no truth to that and you knew it bfore you said it."? Another question. Rather than have a public debate to define the difference in philosophy that exists between two well meaning parties, so that the undecided can make a choice, should the two parties pretend that they really agree on everything so that the undecided never learn the difference? Just curious how you see it.

First Fred, you can't base your decision on what I think on two threads. You would be and are incorrect. here are a number of scouters on this thread that, from what they post, are doing a great job and have a good understanding of the methods of scouting. Some do not. Yes there are many ways to reach the mission of scouting. Many organizations besides scouting try to reach the same goals in their programs. It is not the goal that makes Scouting, scouting...its the path we take to get there. It is the methods that make the various programs of scouting what we are as an organization. Think of as a trip across the country. Lets go from Boston to San Diego. How many different ways can you get there? Fly, walk, bike, motorcycle, train, bus, hitchhike etc. But if you you agreed to pilot a 727 and fly people to San Diego what choices do you you have? Can you walk there? Sure but that's not what you agreed to do. You could fly part way and drive part way, but that's not what you agreed to do. You said you would fly a 727 there. We agreed to use the scoutng program nothing else. It works, why not use it? It's what we said we would do. Why not do it. It is what each scout is promised in the first pages of the handbook, why not keep that promise? Everyone needs to come to grips with the difference between rules and methods. The rules are non-negotiable unless you are ready to pay the price for breaking the rule. Methods are how we deliver the program. They are not the same as rules and they vary with the program levels. Good scouters never have a need to break rules. Good leaders understand how the methods can be applied in various combinations to address any issue or activity. This isn't about what works for you or for me, it's about what works for the youth we serve and the scouting program works when you use the methods as the program is designed. The closer you stay to the program the better it works. BW

So BackPacker what conference did you take at PTC and who was your conference leader?