Bob White

BP So then even "born leaders" are actually "trained leaders". They have been trained in fact through their nurturing and environment. Their passion could as likely come from the quality and qualtity of their nurturing could it not. How can the origin of passion be determined? Whether the skill is taught early or late in life it is still taught. Whether it is learned easily or through great challenge it is still learned. Since the skills of leadership are identifiable and teachable, then must in fact be learnable. I would venture to say that there are more people who learned to lead through experience and teaching then came from the womb with the ability to lead.

What??? BP are you actually saying, as a Sociologist, that a newborn regardless of his upbringing or environment will become what he becomes based only on his inherent nature? That would pretty much negate the need for sociologists wouldn't it?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

"Bob, where is the system to correct this? Where is the adult peer pressure? Outside of this forum it doesn't seem to exist." And to what depth of experience, and through your exposure in how many councils, do you attribute your evaluation?

Actually, unless you could prove that the car had a mechanical difficiency created by its designers, or that the road had not been successufully traveled by cars previously, then detective Bob White would conclude driver error. Operation and maintenance of the vehicle is the driver's responsibility not the dealership's. You do not know me well enough to second guess me. You do not understand personal responsibility if you blame the council for how grown adults dress themselves in the morning.

Welcome back Backpacker you left suddenly without responding to my questions after I answered yours and offered to answer more. What class did you take at PTC in 2002 where frank was your conference leader, and what was the most imortant thing you learned from the course? You asked what my unit position was but did not expalin how it would affect your opinion of my posts.

"The root cause is at the council level, by not being adamant to the scoutmasters about wearing uniforms." Oh Please!! When will adults take personal responsibility for their own actions? Why must it always be the "councils" fault when individuals fail to fulfill their obligation? As a council trainer I have a responsibility to teach individuals the parts and purpose of the uniform. Are we now responsible for dressing volunteers in the morning as well? Rather than blaming "council", how about placing the responsibility on the volunteer who made the personal choice not to wear the uniform?

My apologies, I was running out when I posted this and missed some typos, please allow me to correct them. "I don't want to sound negative but your statement "Ultimately, the Scoutmaster is accountable for the amount of work accomplished by the boys holding positions of responsibility." is something I disagree with. I know some fully believe it and obviously you and possibly BW and others are in that camp but not me." Unless you are OGE or Eamonn it is best that you not try to "guess" at what I think. They rarely miss because they have the pretty much the same understanding of Scouting that I have. No I do not think the Scoutmaster is accountable for the amount of work accomplished by the boys holding positions of responsibility. What the program teaches is that the Scoutmaster is responsible for making sure the scout knows what the job requires and that the scoutmaster teaches the scout the tools he needs to succeed in that job. The scout still needs to do the work. But if the SM understands the needs and characteristics of each scout then he can use the proper leadership skills to help the scout meet the challenge. To say the responsibility lies entirely with the SM is as incorrect as saying it lies entirely with the scout. So please do not venture a guess on my behalf. If you want to know what I think just ask me. Thank You, BW

"FScouter - I don't want to sound negative but your statement "Ultimately, the Scoutmaster is accountable for the amount of work accomplished by the boys holding positions of responsibility." is something I disagree with. I know some fully believe it and obviously you and possibly BW and others are in that camp but not me." Unles you are OGE or Eamonn it is best that you try to "guess" at what I think. They rarely miss because they have the pretty much the same understanding of Scouting that I have. No I do not think the Scoutmaster is accountable for the amount of work accomplished by the boys holding positions of responsibility. What the program teaches is that the Scoutmaster is respponsible for making sure the scout knows what the job requires and that the scoutmaster teaches the scout the tools he needs to succeed in that job. The scout still need to do the work. But if thew SM understands the needs and characteristics of eacj scout then he can use the proper leadership skills to help the scout meet the challenge. To say the responsibility lies entirely with the SM is as incorrect as saying it lies entirely with the scout. So please do not venture a guess on my behalf. If you want to know what I think just ask me.

I know the council I am in provides mass media publicity throughout the districts each Fall in support of cub recruitment.

I will not only agree but amplify Unc's opinion. The best contribution to promoting scouting that an individual unit can do, is make every effort to deliver a real Scouting program at the unit level. Forget complaining about the uniform and wear it, motivate others to wear it. Forget about your personal feelings about the handbooks and just use them. Forget about your personal opinion of the Patrol Method and just do follow the program. Go out into the community and show your neighbors Scouting in action. Give kids the positive, educational, fun, experience promised them in the Scout handbook and you will have all the public support you can possible deal with. You do not need articles in the paper or your name in the media to gain publicity. You need a living breathing scouting program in the unit you serve.

Many will do both, many do both, just stop refer to your fundraiser as public relations or publicity for scouting. It isn't it's advertising for your unit only, and while the district may have a media list for you or a suggestions of things others have done to advertise fundraisers, the District is not there to advertise for your unit only.

I hope you at least noticed that all the responses, including mine, places the responsibility fore making these positions meaningful onto the shoulders of the adult leader. Why you chose to single mine out to dislike is your problem again. The fact remains that no troop position of responsibility will be meaningful unless you make it so.

Not waivering, defining. You want the District to advertise a fundraising event for your unit. The District's responsibility is to promote scouting. You are looking at what is good for the program through the blinders of "what is good for my unit", the Volunteers and professionals look at "How can we promote and support scouting for the good of all units." Advertising a unit fundraiser is not publicity it is advertising. The District and Councils responsibility is publicity. Keeping the values and positive attributes of scouting in front of the public. Hops thinks scouting doesn't get enough publicity, some, perhaps even many agree with him. Yet even people who have never been scouts say "scouts honor" when making a promise. People throughout the world recognize the scout emblem. People refer to persons who won't break rules as "what are you some kinds Boy Scout?". Ask anyone what characteristics they would expect of someone who was an Eagle scout and they will list a variety of positive characteristics. Ask an employer or a college recruiter if Eagle Scout makes a difference on a resume. Reite the scout promise and ask someone what it is and I'll bet better than 9 out of ten people can tell you. How much better can our publicity be? Do a 'good' Good Turn Project and ask your district if they would want to publicize it and see if you get the same response. If you do your district needs to reconsider how it serves you. But don't cry about the fact that they don't want to help you advertise you wanting others to help you rather than you helping others. There is a difference between advertising and publicity.

A telepathy enhanced holigrapic uniform projector that would be able to sense what people thought was the perfect uniform and would adjust its image to meet that persons expectation thereby allowing everyone to only see only the uniform that pleased them. Of course then we would have to deal with people who thought the projector was: too heavy, too big too small a bad color, the batteries didn't last long enough, too expensive, hard to get repaired, made overseas, not made overseas, could be better, knew someone who made a better one, we have over 3 million members in the traditional program. If 99% loved the uniform and 1% hated it that would be over 30 thousand people complaining about it. Do you really believe anything you do will improve those figures?

The OA Lodge Chief sits on our executive board. As far as input from youth, is it believed by some that the only way to have input and an understanding of what youth want or need is to youth on the committee? I would think that in many councils, as in ours, these committees are made of people with successful unit leadership background who have a good understanding of both youth and the scouting program. These youth that are to be on the committees are they the same youth that many posters claim are too busy to attend unit events, leadership meetings, OA meetings and the like? Cub Scouting is a part of the progran as well. Is it the belief of some that a cub scout has the maturity and the tools to sit through a council executive committee and have the slightest grasp on some of any of the things being discussed. Can the committee not make good decisions without that input?

I would not expect him to view an advertisement for a unit fundraiser as publicity.

Without AOL he would need to be 11.

The Wood Badge beads may be worn with any neckerchief.

The local council executive board also has input into that core selection. They can ask regional for candidates who are, strong in financial skills etc. And Regional also looks at he administrative needs of the council and sends candidates who have tools they feel will help the council. The local executive board can view several resumes and make many inquiries before selecting three candisates for interview. If none of those work out they can request another three to interview.

Excuses given: cost duability comfort Actual Reasons: Lack of training. They do not understand the prpose of the uniform. They do not know how to encourage and promote the uniform. They do not know any way to get the uniform other than brand new off the rack. They don't care.

Are organizational skills any less teachable than leadership skills? A scout who organizes, promotes, discovers, obtains, recommends, tracks posession of, troop print resources for 6-months has not learned, practiced, and applied, usable skills? A scout who attends, records, organizes, displays, stores, and catalogs troop actvities for 6-months has not learned, practiced, and applied, usable skills? Is the problem the responsibility or the approach taken by adult leaders toward that responsibility. Not all positions of responsibility involve the skills of leadership. But not everyone in life manages people, some manage things, and those skills are no less real, and no less important. Planning, evaluating, problem solving, communication, goal setting, are all involved in any patrol or troop position of responsibility...aren't they? If all you are teaching a Chaplains aide to do is to "say a prayer a couple times a month" then that scout has been abandoned by the adult leadership of the troop. What other activities could that scout be taught to do as part of that office that would make it a productive and meaningful position?

Hops perhaps we can begin fresh. Could you review your original post and ask a specific question or make a specifc statement that others could build upon?

If you understand that you cannot alter the advancement requirements, and you understand that it is the adult leadership's responsibiliy to make these positions worthwhile and develop junior leaders, then what exactly is your question?

Fred What makes you believe that the district is not capable of putting local faces into local newspapers? What hurdle could possibly exist that would prevent that? "BW you need to quit trying to tear everyone down and live with the fact that the scouting program does not function everywhere in the world under the BW rules! " Nowhere have I set any personal rules. Nowhere did I say you must do this. If you are unable to defend your position just say so, but to turn your attack on me personally because you have run out of things to say is not a worthwhile tactic. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

"After checking again in appears the lad has met all requirements except those under discussion here,(serve actively in a POR) which is why we're discussing them!" You say "those" (plural) and "them" (plural) but you only list one requirement, and that one is being worked on now. So if he hasn't finished all the requirements then he does not advance until all the requirements are completed. Why does that concept require input from total strangers but not a calm conversation with the scout. I reserve my plain talk for "leaders" who do not follow the program.. like not having troop committee members do the board of review as specified by the BSA, only having two BORs a year instead of frequent ones as instructed by the BSA, and lecturing scouts during scoutmaster confereces rather than listening to the scout. I thought from your original post the scout just stopped coming. The more we learn about the unit the more I agree with your second rendition...he escaped. "These folks do not appreciate having their time wasted to review 2 scouts." Luckily hard working folks around much of the rest of the scouting world do not look at serving the scouts as a waste of time. Your loss, our gain. Twenty must be a big job for someone so hard working and busy. Don't worry I'll bet there will be a lot fewer scouts to waste your time before long.