Bob White

My apologies I had been misquoted in another thread and was in a snoot. You are correct.

Packsaddle The confusion comes from (and was created by) your own total fabrication of a quote that you attribute to me. I never posted what you wrote. You falsey quote me as saying "At the present time the BSA does not approve the requirements set forth by the Unitarian Church for their award." What I posted was "While the BSA does not determine the requirements or present the awards they do determine which awards will be a part of the religious award program." That is not even close to your quote of me. Please either improve your accuracy or stop quoting me all together. I wold prefer the latter.

While many of your facts are accurate one for certain is not. I did not at any time say that Seton hired West.

So you had Frank as your conference leader in 02, that's great. When did you serve on Wood Badge, have you had a chance to do the WB of the 21st Century yet? How did you like it? The Young Pioneers by the did not exist in the USA, they were a youth group formed in communist Russia from 1939 to 1945. Just thought I fill in some blans.

Actually Beard's group was "The Society of the Sons of Daniel Boone" and Seton's group was the "Woodcraft Indians" both merged their organizations into the fledgling BSA, I am not familiar with who the "Young Pioneers" were or what their contribution was. Had Beard been the egotist you suggest I doubt he would have recommended Seton as the First Chief Scout Executive of the BSA rather than himself. I never said that Baden-Powell's methods were not core to the scouting movement in the U.S. or any other country for that matter. You will be unable to find any post where I do not support the Patrol method, uniforming, or any of Powell's teaching methods. The question I had was in the use of quoting one line without the perspective of who B-P was speaking to, when, and for what purpose. Your quote is without context and so can be manipulated to serve a number of interprtations and not necessarily the one B-P had in mind at the time. As for my questions about the training it has two purposes. You inquired about my background and I told you. I even offered to share more information at your request. It seems only fair that I should be able to discuss the same with you. The second is talking about a shared experience seems more worthwhile than arguing. I sent you PMs rather than use forum space but my messages went unanswered. If you would rather talk about these shared training experiences off line please write me via the PM link to the left of this post or feel free to answer here. But I find you reluctance to answer curious. BW

Trying to re-write history Backpacker will not do you any more good that trying to rewrite the program. The BSA was never like Baden-Powell's original program. From the outset when Seton and Beard changed the emphasis from B-Ps military theme to one of indian lore the BSA broke away from what B-P established in his first book. Seton's merit badge program, and the creation of the Eagle Scout Rank, all bothered B-P greatly. Baden-Powell's own vision of scouting changed over the years. What he first viewed as a program to strengthen England's military abilities changed over the next 2 decades to Scouting being a tool of world peace through the interassociation of Scouts around the world. B-P, Hillcourt, Seton, and Beard all had in mind a program that used the innate character of youth as a vehicle for education, by using the things that interested them as a vehicle to teach character and self-sufficiency. Just going outdoors and sitting classroom like taking tests was not what they had in mind. Nor was cleaning latrines when you misbehaved, or having adults make random rules to control scouts rather than have to learn and apply leadership. The program designed and taught today by the BSA is far closer to the scouting of the early designers than anything you have shared to this point. By the way I answered all your questions so far regarding my background but you have avoided mine. All I asked was what position you got to serve on during Wood Badge and what presentation you enjoyed doing the most. And I am still waiting for which Scoutmaster course you took in 02 at PTC and what you learned from it. Rather than argue why not just have a converstaion about two courses we both enjoyed? (This message has been edited by Bob White)

I took a lot of grief for squelching two posters in the past. One was thrown off the board, the other I was lead to believe would behave. Today I have squelched two users again. I wouldn't be surprised if they turned out to be the same two. I gave my response to OGE's request in private.

It has been a long time since I have squelched anyone, but there seems to be something in the Maryland water. Another former poster from Maryland used to make the same sort of "shock value" comments as your tasteless and irrelevant comparison to the Holocaust. There is no need for that kind of behavior here. Squelched!

Contact your local Scouting professionals for some options.

"suppose the boy earns the award and suppose the boy does wear it on his shirt...what are you going to do? Tell him his religion don't count and rip it off him because some lawyers in Texas have a hangup." Perhaps some knowledge of the BSA would be of assistance here. For the scout to receive the knot he would have to apply for it from the BSA. That would mean the unit telling the council which religious award was earned. So in this case the knot would not be issued. If the scout were to wear any unapproved award on his uniform it could be handled far more maturely than ripping it off his uniform and without denegrating anyones reigious beliefs. Lawyers do not determine matters dealing with the religious emblems program. The responsible party is the Relationships Division of the BSA. A committee made up largely of representatives of chartering organizations from across the country. There are lots of things adults and youth can be recognized for in their activies outside of scouting that are inappropriate for wearing on the BSA uniform. It is not as if this church award is the only one. Part of belonging to a community is living by the rules of the community.

I think you need to put things into their historic perspective, Baden-Powell said a lot of things to a lot of different people for a lot of different reasons during his life. To simply pull up one line of his without providing the framwork of context, purpose, and audience, robs your quote of it relevance. For all you know he was speaking to Scoutmasters who spend time creating artificial rules to "run their troops" with. B-P lived and created Scouting in the Victorian Age. At that time his concepts on the scouting program were revolutionary. The thought of allowing boys to lead themselves in a time when London youth were largely uneducated, abused by the work houses, and in a community suffering from a huge juvenile deliquency problem, were "out of the box" to say the least. Given those conditions, he developed a teaching method that was far different from anything happening in England or abroad. For decades his teaching methods would be considered radical and would require leaders to be far different in their approach to scouting compared to anything else in their lives. Was BP wrong when he said what he did? Not at all. But he didn't say them yesterday. You have to take into consideration what he was talking about, to who, and when. I think leaders today still need to approach things differently. Following the scouting program would be different for many. It is still a unique and effective educational method, just as B-P intended it to be. Now if we can just get more people to learn how to use it rather than so many imagining themselves the next B-P and trying to reinvent a program that needs leaders to deliver it not rewrite it.

Gladly, the Merriam-Webster Dictionary. 1 : to make camp or occupy a camp 2 : to live temporarily in a camp or outdoors -- often used with out 3 : to take up one's quarters : LODGE By the way the Scoutmaster training, which you say you have lead, spends quite a bit of time on this point. Stay in camp and work on advancement requirements? Why not go do something that requires the application of the skills that you were supposed to be taught at the troop meeting, and by application of the skill you pass the requirement? Boys do not want to sit at camp and pass tests, they want to go live adventures. This too is what is taught in the Scoutmaster Basic Training.

Ed, Camping without any other activity is no different then sitting in your house all day, it just has a different view. Now about the responsibilitiy of a commissioner to support and represent the program, policies and procedures of the BSA....

Where do you get this stuff from Fuzzy? It was Seton who hired West, I never said they were unecessary in fact quite the opposite I said the were "important". But are they heros? That depends on your personal definition. They were the right people to do their job at the right time. Historic? I would say historical. the man who has more to do with the spirit of the BSA program today is arguably William Hillcourt. What any of this has to do with the topic of the thread is beyond me.

There are 98 awards in the BSA Religious Emblems Program representing over 30faiths and organizations according to the brochure I have(publication# 5-879-A). I hope no one thinks I have the mentor and student and counselor manuals on all 98? Which requirement(s) the BSA has a problem with I neither know or worry about. The fact is that the BSA does not recognize that award for recognition in THEIR program or on THEIR uniform, and as a volunteer member I a responsibility to follow their program.

While I still am in awe of the need for some poters to wage personal attacks. Some of the names that have been tossed about as the "heros" of scouting have to make one ask what the definition of hero is. Seton was an artist and author who, together with Dan Beard, manged not only to Americanize Powell's scouting movement keeping the core of the Patrol Method and youth leadership, but totally ticking off BP in the process to where he washed his hands of the BSA for quite some time. James West a sharp administrator developed the council structure and all but alientated Seton from the program. This was not a group of adults who played nice together. Important people certainly, but heros? An arguable view to say the least. The only real "hero" among them was Baden-Powell, who as a soldier did some amazing things and won the admiration and idolization of the youth and adults on the entire European continent. He achieved a level of popularity and recognition that far surpassed any, or for that matter all, of the American founders of the BSA. And yet, decades after all of their deaths, the Scouting program continues in nearly every country in the world. And while few in this country, let alone in the world, know who W.D. Boyce was, every scouting program and most of its participants still know of Lord Robert Stephenson Baden-Powell. But do not confuse the BSA with Baden-Powell's program. They never were the same. And just for the record, and Eamonn I believe will back me up on this, even the Scouting program in England is not the same as it was in 1907 when B-P started it.

The BSA and its nearly 200 members of the national advancement committee would appear to disagree with you. As a commissioner what is your responsibility at this point?

The Religious Award knot is the BSA uniform representation of the religious awards that are a part of the BSA religious award program. While the BSA does not determine the requirements or present the awards they do setermine which awards will be a part of the religious award program. Those participating awards are identified on the religious award brochure published by the BSA. The knot can be worn to represent any of the medals explained in that brochure. The UUC's religious award is not a recognized part of that program. BW

Since the point is to show the scout that camping is about what you do when you are awake and not just setting up a place to sleep I find the activities very appropriate. Now we need to get unit leaders need to learn that camping is about what you do when you are out of the campsite.

I see that scouting has had thousands of heroes. Why the need for a national one? I have never met a great volunteer who either wanted or sought national recognition. Most are perfectly content when they recieve a card at the holidays from a person who remembers them or a friendly hello from a former scout or scout parent that they meet during their day. We haven't needed a national hero since baden-Powell, we still don't. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

I haven't checked on this thread in a while so I thought I would catch up Silver shark you are right it was at a COH, I was trying to remember wher we were when it happened and asked my better half, she thought it was PTC and I agreed. You will have to understand we go to a lot of scouting events and it's easy to bur them together sometimes. Ed We agree about your incredible and continuous loss of scouts we disagree on the reason.

Thank you for your concern WWBPD but I notice you enjoy posting as well, and I do not suggest that while posting YOU do not take take to work with scouts. The purpose of this forum is for people to post. Are you the only one capable of participation here and in scout activities, or would you be willing to accept that others do as well? In which case your scolding way out of line.

More personal attacks ed? Have you learned nothing from what has happened to others who took that path?

Eamonn is correct. With all other ranks the Scout is that rank once the trop BOR passes them. With Eagle however, the application must be approved by national betore the rank is official. National will then back date it to the date of the BOR.

Ed, What do you think camping is? Think about what a camp is. It's a bedroom, a kitchen, a dining room, a family room, and a bathroom. That's it! It's a very small house with a very big back yard. Too many troops make living in the house the goal of camping. Make what you do in the back yard the purpose of going out. You should only be in the house when you have to be. I have no idea what your camping abilities are or those of the scouts you teach, but most the people I camp with and the scouts I have worked with can set up a camp site in 20 minutes and strike it as fast. The rest are things we do every day, cook, eat, and sleep (how tough is that?). What makes camping fun and interesting is the stuff you do when you are awake and not eating. That's the part that takes planning and training. In the times I have been on an outdoor activity camping takes the least amount of time. Most skilled outdoorsmen (and women) go out to do STUFF; canoe, hike to a special place, cave, canoe, fish, climb, cycle etc. That's why a scout should have no trouble getting to First Class in one year. The skills of camping just aren't that tough and there really isn't that much you have to learn. It's the STUFF you do when you are not eating or sleeping that require skill and years of practice to really learn. Don't go camping, go have adventures, and while your out there eat and sleep outdoors.