Bob White

If the local council scout executive approves it as a fundraiser then it is legitimate.

Page 7 of the Boy Scout Handbook "The scout salute shows respect. Use it to salute the flag of the United States of America. You may also salute a Scout leader or another Scout." So while it is not a standardized practice to alute on the two occasions you mentioned, there is nothing that restricts you from doing so. You will find the answers to most scouting questions in the Boy Scout Handbook or other official resources of the BSA. BW

Anarchist You misunderstood. I thought your price range was one of the more reasonable amounts and I was hoping you would share the menu to show that. While I think it is a fairly good menu (way to much sugar and milk solids for my liking), I think it is far more reasonablyt than the $5 figure that was shared. I will have to check prices in our area I really doubt that aome of those items are available at such a low price. 10 pkgs of cocoa for $1? I have a recipe for instant chocalte that doesn't even break down that cheap, let alone pre-packed prices. BW

Nowhere I have I suggested giving the CO more power. I am saying that we need to remind them of the responsibilities and authority they have and have always had, and have not fulfilled in the recent past. BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Anarchist wrote " The uniform is only approved for fund raisers while selling the majestic, the wonderful, the spectacular, the BSA approved ...POP CORN..." Scoutldr wrote "Wearing of uniforms while selling anything other than BSA approved items (usually just Trails End Popcorn or Scout Show tickets) is prohibited." Both of which I believe are incorrect. Wearing the Scout uniform or using the name and images of scouting for the purpose of raising money, without permission of the council scout executive, is prohibited. The SE as the legal representative of the BSA will normally approve scout sponsored products and events and non-brand name products and events. For instance the council will normally approve a pancake and sausage breakfast but not a Pillsbury Pancake and Jimmy Dean Sausage breakfast. No unit or unit representative has the authority to lend the BSA image and name to the sponsorship of a brand name product or event. Such approval must come from the BSA. BW (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Torveaux You are confusing Mark-up with Margin. A gross profit margin of 50% is generated by a mark-up of 100% Most retail clothing operates on a 40 to 50% margin which is a 66 to 100% mark-up.

It's Me, I think you confused my posts with those of other's. The only place I am suggesting the BSA gets more involved is in getting the COs IHs and CRs do fulfill the responsibilities that have been theirs all along but have been neglected, largely due to the fact that no one told them what their responsibility was or held them accountable for doing it. Hi Scout Commish The number floated as unofficial but representaive of the discussion was 8 monthly unit meeting visits to each assigned unit. What this fails to address is... a) Most Districts do not have anywhere near the required number of UCs. b) What good is 8 visits if you get worthless feedbacks and the unit crumbles? How many of us have heard the ever popular commissioner mantra "it's fine". c) The unit meeting is not the only place that the commissioner needs to get feedback from. I am not suggesting that commissioners should become the trainers, but that they should be meeting and greeting, inviting and welcoming, tracking and tracking down the leaders who come to training and the leaders who do not. Eamonn, you know me and my ways, I can bbe expected to share what the BSA has designed the Commissioner service to do and how I lead commissioners to achieve those goals. Basically the Commissioners are charged to see that every eligible youth has the opportunity to belong to a quality scouting unit. That is a very tall order, There is not much that goes on in scouting that doesn't effect the qualkity of the program, or the fact that we are to see it is available to "every eligible youth". Certainly unit administration, unit program, training, activities, recruitment, FOS, new units, all impact the goals of commissioning. So as Commish said the nature of commissioning is to be a generalist. I see commissioners as having to need 'Big Picture Concept' understanding and 'specific task resources' knowledge. A commissioner needs to be able to recognize good scouting and motivate and support the people who deliver it. They also need to recognize the signposts of poor scouting and be able to direct the highest level of authority to information and resources to alter the course, before the youth program suffers. The commissioner helps represent the ideals, the principles, and the policies of the Scouting movement. I have to say at this point that after this SE spoke and we went back to our Roundtable Seminar, a number of the participants pointed out (after just having discussed the importance of roundtable and rountable commissioners to set an example of the scouting program) that the Council Commissioner Keynote Speaker, was not in a complete uniform anmd he had patches in the wrong place. This was there observation, and it troubled them. So yes people notice. And if you are in a position of representing the program people think if you do it this way then they should do it that way. So we had better do it right. BW (This message has been edited by Bob White)

"2. BSA takes a big markup. I don't know how much of a markup they take--I do remember that scout stuff was expensive back in the dark ages when my parents were buying it for me, when there was less competition from imports. But if there is a big markup, it seems to me that this would be a situation in which the financial interest of BSA would be in conflict with supporting one of its own methods." Actually not. The BSA's markup is comparable to any retailer's. You are correct, because it is USA union manufactured it has a much higher cost than just about any clothing article you buy in any US location. That's why so much of the industry is now manufactured overseas. The union clothing products I sell cost me nearly twice that as the near identical import (you can always tell the difference) so my sell price is twice as much. You have to remember that these products do not go straight from manufacturer to end-user. The manufacturer gets a profit (at union prices), The distribution center has to make a profit to cover shipping (to the distribution center then to the scout shops), warehousing, operation costs, advertising (the millions of catalogs aren't free to make)and profit. Then the scout shop or retailer makes a markup to cover operation costs and profit. Most Retail store make as much a 40% gross profit margin. So a $15 pair of pants at cost would sell for $25 There are 4 ways to purchase new scout items. Through the distributor, a National Scout shop, a local council scout shop, or a local retailer with a scout shop franchise. The further down the line you buy the less profit national makes. If you buy from a local scout shop or retailer and they get 10% that's 10% the BSA does not make. But the price of goods is the same. So if import pants are $15, then union made version can easily be $25 or more just as an example. If between the BSA and the retailer they split a normal retail markup of 40% that would make those slacks a retail price of about $42. Of that $17 profit the retailer gets about $1.70 andthe BSA gets $15.30. Of that $15.30 gross profit, it is likely, based on industry averages that they keep about 7% of their gross as a net profit. So the BSA might net about $1.19 per pair of pants. Agian that is guestimating based on retail averages. What I am trying to show is that while the BSA makes profit on the uniforms so do a lot other other people, and that you have to consider the costs the BSA has in the handling and distribution of those products. Do not confuse gross profits with net profits.

Anarchist What specifically to you believe is a resonable price for meals? Please post a balanced menu and ingredients for a patrol of 6 that you believe can be done for that amount. BW

I have a question for the moderators. Since I have begun posting again two posters have taken the opportunity to post messages that had no bearing on the topic discussed, but simply took public personal shots at me. I have no problem with people who want to discuss the merits of topic or view. But why are posts whose sole purpose is to insult another poster allowed to remain. What harm to the discussion would be caused if only posts that were germane to the topic were allowed on the forum? Will these personal attacks be allowed to continue unimpeded by the forum administration? I would appreciate a response either private or public to this question from Terry, OGE, or Hops.

Torveaux Why would you want the uniform to match a mass production piece? that would kind of eliminate the purpose of the uniform. Do you see anybody dressing like a UPS driver who isn't a UPS driver? Do you see lots of folks at the mall dressed as a mail carrier who aren't mail carriers? Pro football players? Jockeys? The uniform is supposed to be unique. As far as what others wear in other programs... have you ever been to a World Jamboree? Have you ever had a chance to see what uniforms are like in other scouting programs? There are over 200 scouting program in WOSM, I would guess maybe 25% to 40% have head to toes uniforms at best. Most countries have only uniform shirts, some wear only neckerchiefs. We are fortunate to live in a free market, largely affluent country with the second largest scouting program in the world. I have met with scouts from at least 50 different countries over the years. They want to be like us! They like our uniforms, the quality of our patches, our handbook. They would scratch their heads with wonder if you said you wanted to have their uniforms for anything other than a collection piece. BW

Eamonn Here is a link to the national website where you can find a description of the unit commissioners job. You will also see a link of commissioner resources many include a specific job description. Rather than prolong the length of my already wordy posts I will ask that you refer to the text in the manual . http://www.scouting.org/nav/commissioners/home.html I agree with you about the current average description of commissioners. The question was asked as to where commissioners should come from if not from retiring scouters. What I suggest is that we recuit new members to be commissioners. Every scouter starts out without experience, why can't commissioners. I would rather have someone with no scouting background but a belief in scouting that we can train, then a burned out veteran scouter all to willing to promote "his" views of scouting rather than the current program, procedures, and policies. I know of no time in the past 40 years when commissioning did not exist. Foto, It is not true that a commissioner has no authority in a unit, he or she has limited authority. However with more trained unit leaders the need to excercise that authority would be largely unnecessary. The situation you describe is largely a local problem caused by lack of commissioner and unit leader training. You speak of historical evidence of CO involment being a negative. I am unfamiliar with any such situation please elaborate. The BSA charter concept developed in the early 1900s was designed for and dependent on Charter organizations taking an active role. They did for many years. Many things have caused that relationship to deteriorate. I believe two things have had a huge effect. One is of course the need for local professionals to focus on the financial nad membership needs of loval scouting and the rising number of units they are responsiblke for due to consolidations have made it almost impossible for them to foster relationships with the IHs and CRs. Secondly, our society has become highly mobile and IHs are rarely long term either in the community or in their organization. Too often when an IH changed we did not get in and re-establish the use of scouting by the organization as their youth outreach program. We being and scouting representative whether unit, district or council level volunteer or professional. Because of these two things many CO / BSA relationships have disappeared completely leaving as being viewed more as squatters than as their scouting program. A solid CO/Unit relationship has many advantages. A more focused program, greater resource availability both physical and financial, Fewer evictions, greater community exposure, better quality control, all would do much to benefit the quality of the program delivered within each unit. But another advantage and a very wise move be the BSA founders is the legal insulation provided by the charter concept. It captures liability at the closest level to where the problem took place. It is very difficult thanks to the charter concept for council to be held liable for a screw up by an untrained leader. Or for National to be held liable for a screw-up at another level of ther program. Each level is held responsible for itself because the BSA does not OWN the unit, the CO does. Why do you suppose the BSA defends you when you follow the bold type fave directions in the Guide to Safe Scouting, but does not if you fail to follow the directions. If you eliminate the charter concept you could expose the entire program to every mistake made by any untrained leader out there, and there are far too many of them. Granted they would also be liable for trained leaders but the risk of a trained leader messing up is less than an untrained leader. I bellieve lawsuits would shut the BSA down very quickly. All the more reason to get the COs to fulfill their current responsibility to select quality leaders and get them to training.

First, Backpacker, No complaining here. These views have been shared with national level volunteers and professionals ovewr the lasr few years. This is not a whine. This is a warning of what I see happening based on information I recieved first hand from a participant in a conference at national, and specific suggestions based on experience and an understanding of the scouting program. This is not idealistic, it is specific. I listed who would be resonsible for doing specific actions with specific people. This is a plan not a wish. I am sure that if national is reading this thread they would consider your plan with equal pleasure. So far you have only offered personal insults. You said that the commissioner service had been this way since day one. You now say that it hasn't been. Once you decide what you think I will be happy to disuss it with you, politely if you so choose. Foto scout, The BSA charter concept depends on Cos. The problem is we have done a poor job the past 20 years of remindinf COs of that responsibility. The only way to rid yourself of COs is to do away with the charter concept. I do not think you would want us to do that. I am not sure you understand the benefits of COs on a big scale view of things. That being the case since we are keeping COs we need to make them work the way they are supposed to. The biggest drawback I see for some is that if the IH and CR understood their authority and responsibility, a number of scouter leaders would be told to follow the program or find the door, and I think that would help a lot in keeping more boys in scouting, but probably make for a bunch of surprised 'leaders'. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

What I am saying torveaux is that you need to understand what the uniform is for and what it isn't for. I do lots of different types of outdoor activities in lots of different weather conditions. I do not have a single piece of clothing or outer wear that suits every activity or contion. So I do what my training yeaches me to do. I dress for the activity and the weather. I do not expect my scout uniform to work in every occassion any more than my columbia zip-offs will. My scout uniform works great for meetings, parades, ceremonies, public speaking. It shows the public my mebership in and dedication to the ideals of the scouting program. That is what the uniform is for. My wife always gets a kick out of the fact that nearly every time we camp we have had people stop in and ask for help. They usually say, "you looked like you knew what you were doing are you a Boy Scout?" I bet that has happened a couple dozen times or more over the years. You don't need to dress like a scout when you are camping...you just need to camp like a scout.

I agree the work in scouting is for the scouts to do. I'm sure everyone has seen cases of parents trying to help too much to one degree or another. I always left the handling of the parents to the committee chair once they had gone through the parents orientation. Maybe it's the region I live in or my upbringing but I would never think of refering to the parents as "mommies" and "daddies", not even in Cub Scouts. As a parent I find that tone very demeaning. The only reason units exist is do to the efforts of the parents and guardians of the scouts we serve. If you want them to respect what you do then you have to respect them as well. It is not as if they don't get to see their share of leaders who do too much for the scouts.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

"The 100% Cotton BSA Trouser is currently listed at $56.60 for regular size 36. It has no cargo pockets or similar 'outdoors' design." If your argument is that the BSA doesn't make good 100% cotton camping pants all I can say is "nobody does". I am not sure how much outdoor training you have but 100% cotton is a lousy material for camping clothing. Those are dress slacks you are looking at and they will out live just about any pair of dress slacks in your closet and come with a lifetime warranty.

Acco, I do not disagree that a better Roundatble program will produce better Roundtable attendance. But we have an attendance problem that the program quality cannot totally overcome...consolidation. Councils and districts nationwide are becoming larger geographically making it difficult for units at outer edges of a district to attend centrally located meetings. There is an inefficient amount of travel time. It's not that they can't attend it is just not as 'convenient'. Adding incentive along with improved Rountables would help. Plus if you look at my posts on the topic I have never opposed mandatory training. I oppose the council making it mandatory since units and unit leaders belong to the COs. Council should not be blurring the lines of the charter concept by taking over a COs responsibility. By the way if you are looking to improve Boy Scout Roundtable may I recommend the BSRT conference at Philmont Training Center. Backpacker, you have an incorrect knowledge of the history of commissioning. The current structure is not the structure that it has always had. It is is however the structure it has had since the 1960s. It is one of the very few elements of the scouting program that has not been altered in 4 decades. footnote "Iceberg". (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Hi Eamonn, The "family doctor making house calls" is not my creation. That is how the BSA characterizes the use of UCs in the commissioner handbooks, and that is the model they have used for decades. That is the model they plan to continue to use if thy follow the path that was vaguely described to us last weekend by a participant in that national meeting. Commissioner service is finally a priority, but they are years too late in my opinion. Most of the problem we face today could have been positively impacted by a better organized more focused comissioner service. I think we agree that we need more adult leaders to attend training. We have tried shorter courses, more flexible modules for delivery, unit level trainers, and still we do not have 100% trained leaders as the Girl Scouts do. We need mandatory training. That mandate should be coming from the CR and CC not from the council. The unit belongs to the CO, the leaders belong to the CO, and the COs should take an activee responsibility in the selection of the leaders and in their development. But many COs no longer undersatnd or are even aware of that responsibility. DE's do not have the time to make the needed visits to foster that relationship. This is a task better suited to commissioners in my opinion. We live in the community, we belong to these COs. We can do a better job if building these relationships than the DEs can. Think of the impact on the quality of the program delivered to youth if we improved CO/BSA relationships, had CCs and CRs choosing leaders more carefully, and had 100% trained leadership in units. UCs calling on units does not work. Units following the program do not need UCs. Units in trouble rarely listen to UCs or accept their direction. If more units had a healthy relationship with their Cos and had 100% trained leaders, there would be far fewer units in trouble to begin with. If units had more carefully selected, better trained leaders they would have better scouting programs. Better program is the #1 answer to retention problems. Boys leave scouting mainly do to poor delivery of the scouting program. The most efficient way to improve the program is through better leaders. It's not that we have bad people leading units, it's that we have untrained leaders leading units. This year you will likely see every public school drop scouting. This will be the Iceburgh to the BSA Titanic. We need to change course and re-establish our position with the COs. We need to be their scouting unit, and not the scouting unit that meets there. BW

Yes, I am a Commissioner. Between my time as a unit Commissioner, Roundtable Commissioner, Roundtable Staff, District Commissioner and Asst. Council Commissioner, I have close to 20 years in commissioning service.

So then Mike what do the Patrol Leaders do?

I agree with NWScouter, the purpose of service projects is to teach scouts the value of helping others withou the need for reward. I have no problem with units bartering manpower for camping fees but this is hired labor, not service to others.

Beaver, I would be interested in seeing a balanced menu for 4 meals for $5 total. Could you give us an idea of what an average weekend menu looks like for a patrol?

Mike, He gave you binder called Woods Wisdom and it refers to a Woods Wisdom in it??? Are you sure? What you may want is the current version since since Woods Wisdom referneces an old handbook and not the current edition. The new reference is called Troop Program Features, volumes 1,2, and 3 ($5.95 each). A fourth companion references is Troop program Resources $8.75. As your scoutmaster to have the Troop committee purhase a set. They have 36 months of troop meetings basewd on 36 program themes. There are aslo ceremonies, scoutmaster minutes, lots of games, and servic e project ideas. They are a needed addition to any troop library.

We do the same as the unit scoutldr serves. Typical outing costs no more than $15 with camp fees incuded. We do $60 annual dues to cover recharter and awards and equipment. Averaging a field uniform lasting a minimum two years we figure it costs about $450 a year (about $37 a month) for scouting including summer camp, excluding personal equipment. We ask each scout to sell popcorn and we usually have one other fundraiser during the year. Half of the profit generated by a scout goes into the general fund and half is earmarked for the scout to be used to reduce dues or camp fees. Several of the scouts earn half or more of the cost through these fundraisers. We also encourage the families to have the scouts work at home for an allowance to pay for scouting themselves.

If showing how to have a successful scouting program for youth by actually following the scouting program, and if steering leaders to scouting resources rather than personal oppions is gounds for being considered an instigator than I accept the title. The forum administration can verify that I have never posted under other names, unlike other participants. I think if you go back to the early part of the thread the topic was abandoned when a number of misreprentions were attributed to the Uniform Method. That was the beginning of the course that has lead us here.(This message has been edited by Bob White)