Bob White

I missed this the first time through and thought it was worth re-visiting. Packsaddle wrote "My point was an exercise in logic, nothing more. If the application settles the question of atheism, and if nearly any answer satisfies the advancement requirement, then there may be little meaning to the exercise." I don't believe the application does settle the question. At least not the youth application. The Declaration of Religious Principles he refers to is on the Adult Application only and does not appear on the youth applications. So it is not relevant to this situation. BW

The BSA requires that two signatures be needed on any check drawn from the unit account, They recommend the Treasurer, Committee chair, and Unit Leader have authorization , with any two needed on each check. They require a detailed monthly report to the unit commitee each month. They recommend that the the money earned this year be spend on the scouts this year. I am not aware of any other requirements or recommendations.

We had the patrol hold a new election. (TheScout, lets say we used Congress and call it a draw )

This is not a recruitment problem, this is a leadership or a communication problem. If this is the policy decision of the unit leaders, as the parents say they were told, then it is a bad decision. They will either need to change their decision or accept its effects. If this is not the unit's philosophy then someone is not communicating it to the Webelos very well and they need to be set on the right path. BW

Before anyone takes this too far let me poinbt out I didn't write the release. I found it. Tjm asked for help, no one else had any informatiion so I did some looking around and fount the relaes. It says "in 2002" Not any scout or leader who does these things but "in 2002". Be careful not to kill the messenger just because you do no like the message. As far as people "needing" the award. I can see why some could use the health benefits of it, and some may want it. But no other advancment or award is dependent on it so I know of no reason anyone "needs" it. According to the mentor notes the completed application is returned to the council with the unit leaders signature. I would go back to your council with print-outs of the documents that Hunt and I have referenced and ask your council if they have further information. Hope this helps, BW

You analogies make no sense & aren't even related to the topic. What are unrelated are Mr. Smiths crime and the operations of the BSA. I resent that some are trying to fabricate a relationship in order to try and damage the BSA. From what we know, this guy was using his home PC to commit his crimes. However, his work PC has been confiscated and we don't know what they have found on it. I really hope nothing inappropriate. Ed if you knew he was using e-mail for the crime wouldn't you look at any computer he had access too? Like I posted before, if this guy wasn't in the system, his background check would come up clean! And this can happen anywhere. It is only big news because he worked for the BSA national office AND was involved in youth protection! No one has has said this wasn't a juicy news story for the media. This is, if nothing else, bad press for the BSA & the fallout has yet to be seen. There could be lawsuits filed against the BSA because of this. Not necessarily valid ones since, but they could occur. So if it is nothing more than that ed then why are you making up possible wrong doing by the BSA when none has been suggested by the people who investigated the crime. Who might file those lawsuits Ed? If they are not valid ones then why do you give the possibillity so much validitY? And some are questioning if the BSA might have known about this guy & did nothing based on past history. And it is a valid question that needs to be asked, investigated & answered! Where is there a thread of evidence Ed that the BSA had prior knowledge? Who connected with Smith's personal crime has made any accusation or even suggestion of the BSA's involvement? If there is no accusation why would there be an investigation and who would be investigating it?. What knowledge of the facts gives validity to the question other than your fabrication of the question? Do you beileve that just because you have insinuated wrong doing by the BSA that there are now grounds to investigate that belief? If you pleading guilty to setting fire to your neighbors house should we investigate your employer's prior konowledge of your pyromania. Why is you want to distance yourself from this man's behavior, yet you want to connect the BSA to it? A Scout is Loyal BW

So jkhnyy tell me, when Clinton was violating his marital vows with Monica Lewinsky in the Oval Office of the White House, was Congress at fault? When Ted Kennedy drove his car over the bridge and drowned that girl what organization did you blame? When OJ murdered Nicole what did that teach you about the NFL? So now you have read a book, and now you know everything there is about the value and problems of scouting. Aren't you a wonder. And the thousands of professionals and hundreds of thousands of volunteers over 95 years and after serving over 130 MILLION youth are suddenly supposed to shudder over a few truly unfortunate incidents that were caused by a fraction of one percent of those that serve in scouting who didn't live up to their responsibilities. The BSA did not deny that they, and others, are investigating two councils were concerns were raised over membership. Has Mr.jkhny read the reports on the BSA website regarding those 2 councils where problems were reported, out of over three hundred councils in the movement? Do you know of an instance where a scouter has done something illegal and not been prosecuted. Do you really have evidence of that? Because there is no shortage of lawyers in this country and if you have knowledge of this crime then I invite you...no I urge you...make your charges where they count, in a court of law. Otherwise go find 130 million other kids and see if you can accomplish a fraction of what the BSA has. Defending the BSA does help, especially against such blatant misrepresentations and irresponsible statements as you have offered. Communities need to know that we belive strongly in this program. I am happy to say that I support this program, I am grateful for what I learned from it as a youth, and I am proud to be a leader in it. No individual can negate the good that I have seen this program do in so many boys lives, and certainly nothing that can be said by someone who has read "a" book will be able to harm the Scouting movement either. Rather than reflect on the tragedy caused in so many lives by the proliferation of pornography, you choose to manipulate the circumstances of one persons actions into a damnation of the entire BSA national office and Scouting. How fortunate for you that child pornography is so readily available in our lives now. I find your opportunistic use of this man's personal crime as distasteful as the crime itself.

Eammon, I cannot tell you how much I enjoy your posts. Right on the money. Who would of thought that you could learn the about the best way to deliver scouting by going to BSA leader training. Outstanding post! BW

Chile started their program in 1909. Keep in mind Baden-Powell's S.Africa connection, I am 99.9% sure South Africa was second in early 1908. We may need to go to a higher authority. Another poster has told me that he has extensive scouting training, including international training, perhaps he will be able to clarify this.

As a scoutmaster, and in troops as an assistant scoutmaster we have done it nearly exactly as TheScout described only SPL term was 9 months, Patrol Leaders were 6 and they staggered elections that way the PLC was never entirely new leaders at the same time. We took our model from the House of Representatives.

Take a look at the document on the link I gave. this was a program that ran for 2002.

That was edited out some time ago. Shouldn't the concern be more about those using this tragic crime by an individual as a way attack the scouting movement. Lets see a little backbone from the "leaders".

BZZZZZZ South Africa, Australia, and New Zealand were all in 1908 and I believe in that order. They were the first to follow the United Kingdom. I'll take what's behind curtain #3.

The BSA Physical Fitness Award was a one year progranm that only ran for the year 2002. It is no longer available. http://www.scouting.org/pubs/19-327/ BW

"B.S.A. dragged its feet for decades in addressing child abuse." What an irresponsible statement! Oh for Pete's sake...EVERYBODY dragged their feet for decades in addressing child abuse! For centuries for that matter. Some people still do. "B.S.A. was aware of 1800 cases of child abuse that were NOT reported to authorities." So who told thy BSA? The BSA doesn't have any units. If somebody told the BSA than that same person was the one responsible to report it to their local authorities WHY didn't they? There are approximately 1.5 MILLION cases of child abuse reported each year and experts estimate an equal amount that goes unreported and you want to make an issue of 1,800 alleged cases? "B.S.A. officials have even been arrested for failing to report child abuse" Who were they and when? This is what happens when leaders allow the crimes of one to make them run and hide. You allow this kind of tripe to be hoisted upon you unchallenged. "The issue of child abuse is buried in confidentiality statements and sealed court records." Sealed by who the BSA? Child abuse involves children..DUH...the court seals those records to protect the kids not the BSA. The previous letter is a great example of the uninformed trying to rally the uncommitted. If you see people like this as the sharks circling the BSA then Scouters who are afraid to defend their own program are certainly the bloody chum that attracts them. This kind of dumpster diving is pathetic. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Basically here is the Ideal Year of Scouting in a nut shell sort of. Many troops plan their program based on their financial resources. That's backwards. The way to have an exciting Scouting program is to plan an exciting Scouting program. What would your pack committee, troop PLC and committee, etc. do this program year if it could deliver an ideal year of scouting to the families. Write it down, put in on a calendar, make a plan. Include everything you need, want to provide, want to do, where to go. Now figure out what that would cost to do for each scout. Then figure out how much Popcorn each scout would have to sell to pay their own way. Now gather the families and present the program. For instance, when I was a cubmaster we wanted a full resource library for every den, We wanted to start each den off with $25 for supplies each program year. We planned to give each scout their neckerchief and handbook each time they graduated. Webelos 1 got a Boy Scout Handbook, Webelos 2 got a Polaris compass. All boys go to day camp (pack pays 1/3, CO paid 1/3, family paid 1/3, Webelos spent a weekend on a docked submarine. We had professional entertainment at program at every other pack meeting. Pack paid for all awards and activity fees. Pack paid for pinewood derby cars, paid for Blue and Gold, paid all membership fees, paid for Boy's Life. We said we would do all this at no additional cost to the families if each scout would sell a minimum of $450 in popcorn (in our council that was about $180 profit), about two order forms worth. Otherwise, the family would pay any activity costs and would need to pay $100 in pack fees. We averaged well over the $450 per scout. If you show the parents a great program and show them a way to enjoy it free for just two weeks of work they will respond. It requires a good plan, good enthusiasm and a little salesmanship. But it works great. We were the top selling pack in the district and second in the council. BW

Hi Eric, I know a number of units who have improved their program and increased their fundraising by following the steps in the Ideal Year of Scouting plan. One Pack in particular that went from $800 dollars in popcorn sales to over $10,000 in a single year once they adopted the plan. I like it a lot. BW

So taking into consideration what fgoodwin said ..."but until all the facts come out, nobody can say how much the BSA knew about this man's background, or when they knew it. and pairing it with the fact that the BSA has not been charged with any wrong doing, shouldn't the presumption be that the BSA knew nothing of his illegal activities or his character flaw until this matter was brought to their attention recentlty and they took action? Why then are scouters on this thread assuming otherwise? I am awed that some want to give the defendant his time before the court before they count him guilty, but the BSA they are willing to presume as guilty when there has not even been a suggestion of wrong doing by anyone involved in the case. Courious, BW

Scoutndad you seem to have an excellent understanding of the process and the purpose. I think if you just expain it to the parents as clearly as you have here and then allow them the chance to make their decison then you will have done both what you could do and what you should do as the Den Leader. BW

Youth protection program development was not a race with just one winner. While some may have developed a program before the BSA, there were many, many, more who came much, much, later (and some still not at all). What gave the BSA's program so much impact was the huge numbers of youth and adult that educated in the topic due to the size of our organization, and the fact that it was a multi-level format. For years our Dept. of Children and Family Services and local law enforcement used our BSA Youth Protection training for their staff training since the State had nothing to train them with on that topic. Whether we were first or not is irrelevant. Since its beginning millions of adults and youth have recieved the training and very few organizations can have that kind of impact. Bw

Just so that there are no misunserstandings, there is no interrogation involved on the leader's part, there is only listening. The handbook asks the question in the requirement, the scout explains his answer, the den leader listens. Thats' all there is to it.

Wingnut The measure in Cub Scouting is for the cub to do his best in completing the requirement. Not to do his best to do the requirement. The scout still has to complete the requirement. If for instance if the scout has to make a bird house using wood tools and it ends up looking like a key rack thats OK, the scout did his best. But if his mom says she doesn't want him to use tools, and he is not to build anything, then the scout has not completed the requirement. You can't just give him the advancement because his mom has an unusual view toward the requirements. He has to do what the requirement states.

None of the reports I have seen or heard on the news so far has said he used the computer at work. Has that actually been reported or is that just being assumed?

According to the news reports he is pleading guilty to the charges.

While you are partially correct in your summary the sticking point appears to be the "explain to your Den Leader" If the parents do not allow the scout to do this then he has not met the requirements. Faith in yourself does not meet the BSA's member obligation to Duty to God. The whole thrust of the the BSA position is that its members ahve belief in, and duty to, a higher power. Soft soaping that view will only lead to greater disappointment for the scout further up the scouting trail. Better to make sure that he and his parents understand the obligation now.