Bob White

Then what do you gain by not transfering to the other unit now? There is no such thing as merging the units. You stop being the member of one unit and you join the other. There is no benefit to waiting until recharter time. Rather than look for an odd way to alter the uniform why not just join the other unit?

Mr. Brigs???? Why would they call Jim Phelps, Mr Brigs? You were probably thinking of Mr. Briggs,(Dan Briggs) played by Steven Hill head of the IMF before Peter Graves joined the cast.

I would bet that a lot of folks don't look at the BSA jac-shirt as anything more than an official uniform jacket. I know I never really thought of it as a conversation piece. When you look at all the possible combinations of authorized patches that can go on the official uniform jac-shirt or windbreaker it seems clear that there are several different looks it can have and still be within the uniform allowances set by the BSA. I am relieved rrclark1 that your intention was not to insult anyone. Because when you said that everyone in yourexperience fell into one of two camps, those who saw no need to follow the uniform regulations and could do whatever they pleased, or Nazis, one would think you meant 'Nazi' in a bad way. Now that you have explained yourself I see that you meant Nazi in a very complimentary and supportive way. I do not think I have ever met anyone before who thought that calling others Nazis would be seen as anything other than an insult. Perhaps we could relabel your two camps? Camp A could be those who have no difficulty following the BSA uniform regulations, and Camp B could be those who have difficulty following BSA uniform regulations. The question that comes to mind would be, 'since you say you were a member of Camp A in Cub Scouts, why do you feel compelled to join Camp B in Boy Scouts'? I had to take a look at my jacket to see what was on it. The Scout emblem. The Philmont Bull, Philmont Training Center patch, and the BSA International jacket patch on the back.

Eagle92, You have fallen victim to an urban legend. Just because you have seen scouters in the past cover their BSA jac-shirts with patches you have assumed that the uniform regulations allowed it. Please find any evidence, other than the fact that some scouters wore the jacket incorrectly, to show that it was ever an allowed uniforming practice. Besides what "used to be" is past. Today is when rrclark1 is wearing the uniform and today he feels that leaders who set a good example by wearing their uniform correctly are Nazi's. rrclark needs his uniform to be unique for some reason and the only reasons I can think of is that he needs assistance in recognizing his own clothing or he feels that is is special among volunteers and needs others to see that. I am simply asking out of curiosity what his motivation is for needing a unoque unioofrm and to call others names. The BSA Jac-shirt is an official uniform piece and it has uniform controls on it set by the BSA, rrclarck feels that should not apply to him. But more importantly he feels the need to call those who disagree with his opinion...Nazi's.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Just so you understand unless you are the institutional head of one of the chartering organizations you have no authority to merge the troops. The Charter that allows the unit to exist is between the BSA and the chartering organization and not between the BSA and the Scoutmaster. The assets such as money, equipment etc, belong to the chartering organization and not the troop. While you may want to go to another troop that does not mean that you can take the monney and equiupment with you or that the CO must give up their charter. They are free to find new leadership and new scouts and keep the troop going using the money and equipment that belongs to them. By not following the program you are just going to create more problems for yourselves.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

If by unique you mean how do I tell my jacket from another, I have never had difficulty with taht have you? Usually I know mine because I am the one wearing it. But If I were take it off and place it with other jackets and someone used exactly the same optional patches I used then I have put my name inside the jacket on the name tag that comes already sewn in the jacket. I am curious...Since when does abiding by a program rule make a person a Nazi? Why does your jacket have to be "unique" from all other uniform jackets? Are you special in some way from all other scouters?

John, all the items you list are ways councils obtain the references and all are specifically allowed by the BSA Advancement Policies and Procedures. They are not interpretations, they are stated options from which National gives the council the choice to select from. That was not the topic of the thread. Our discussion was on the use of youth as references, not on the method of collecting the references. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

No district or council person is required to be on the review committee for eoither the Gold or the Silver Award in Venturing. The Crew President and Crew Advisor are instructed to selct a review committee of four to six persons including Ventureres and adults to review the written application and interviwew the Scout. The application is then approved by the crew Advisor and the crew committee chairman and sent to the council office to be recorded. This information is available in the Venturing Leader Handbook and Ventruring Leader Specific Training.

According to the National Scout office once they recieve the application fromm the council is takes an average of 4 to 6 weeks to process the paperwork and return the kit to the Council office. Congratulations to your son.

More importantly, National makes no restriction and the council has no authority to alter that since it is a national policy. What the BSA does recommend is that a counselor stay within a single area of expertise such as a registered nurce could councel any of the healt and medical related merit badges, or teacher could do the scholastic topics, and a lawyer could do the civics related topics, etc. I would expect many councils adopted thes types of local rules because of local abuses, like a scoutmaster who tries to register for all the Eagle Required bages so that he can do them all at troop meetings himself and then point to all his Eagle Scouts to show what a good SM he is. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Half the group group should quit the unit they are in and transfer to the other unit so that you are one unit and can follow the program as it is designed. All the problems you are trying to solve by doing things incorrectlty would disappear. No new flags, no special patches, just a normal Scout Troop.

Since neither the Council or District is charged with "interoreting" the National advancement requirements and polices but rather for following and enforcing them I would see not reason to seek a verdict on this. Rather, I would follow the request for two additional references, and since it does not state that they miust be from an adult over the age of (fill in the blank), then I would not worry about it. What I would do is counsel the scout how how the right kind of references can enhance an application be it an Eagle Scout application or a job application. The key is to have people of stature as references. Don't just pick people who know you, pick people with credentials that know you. The SPL of your your NYLT course, The Lodge Chief of your OA, the Senior Patrol Leader of your troop, the president of your Student Council, the captain of sports team you play on. These are people who can speak to your character and that the advancement committee will be impressed by, and not Fred from down the street that you play video games with.

The pack paid for them. But if your pack doesn't raise enough money then they have to cut something out of the budget. How much do they spend on belt loops a year? What would you prefer they cut from the budget instead? One way to remedy this is in how you fulfill your buidget. How many belt loops on average does a scout earn a year and how many additional boxes of popcorn would each Cub have to sell to afford it. Let's say if on average each cub earned 6 belt loops a year, thats $9.54 per scout or less than the commission from just 2 15-pack boxes of microwave popcorn. Would it be possible for the pack to continue paying for the awards and simply raise the popcorn goal by two boxes per scout? As a cubmaster, the committee chair, advancement chair, and pack treasurer and I sat down and decised what we wanted to pay for fopr the Dens and pack each year. It basically came down to everythig but the uniform shirt, pants, hat, and belt. We set a goal of $250 per Scout in popcorn sales. They ended up selling much more than that. But at the $250 average we could purchase awards, their next rank handbook, next next neckerchief and their next year of membership. With the additional money we bought a full library of program resources for each den, Den Flags, paid for adult training, and even for a portion of Day camp for every Cub. So you might ask the Pack committe how, rather than cut the aawrds, what would the pack need to do to raise the funds to afford the awards?

You can check with your coucil's registrar as to whether the contact lists are generated by Scoutnet or not. The BSA does not require a MB counselor to renew their membership annually as long as the council sends them a leter asking if they intend to continue as a councelor, and the counselr agrees. Once the lapse of the list opfr evena year then a new registration is required. BW

I am pretty sure that nowhere in the program does it say that you have to wait until the Scout asks in order to have a scoutmaster's conference with a scout. Nor does the committee have to wait for a scout to ask in ordar to have him come before a board of review. It's just that you have to be sure that he has one of each after all the other requirements for a rank are done before he can advance.

http://www.scouting.org/venturing/training/kodiak.aspx This is a link to a fact sheet regarding the KODIAK course. To lead one at the crew level requires your council's permission. They will then supply you with the training manual. BW

Something to consider is that the exercise you speak of, and the other games just like it, are not abot knowing the right answers to the list,but about the interaction of the group, and the dynamics of decision ,aking in a group. Those excercises are far more about group dynamics that the Game of Life is. Everytime you the play those scenario games with a new group you have new dynamics regardless of knowing the answer to the list. The same is true of the Game of Life. I have played this game with an airplane crash scenario, and forest fire scenario, a lost on the amazon scenario, and every time the team dynamics were a little different. So knowing the answer or the reason for the excercise makes no real difference. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Just so the moderators and other posters understand...The worst thing I have said about BadenP is that he "used to be a professional for a few years" a fact he has known made about himself on more than a few occassions. When applicable I have pointed out that according to the resources of the official BSA program, his information was incorrect. Neither his having been a pro, or his information conflicting with the BSA's is my fault nor is it attacking him. BadenP said"I have tried to appeal to Bob civily in the past only to be insulted by him at every turn Well let's review some of BadenP's civil appeals to me shall we? " ...you will find out for yourself just how pathetically untrue and simplistic your argument really is. Of course you would already know your statements were faulty if you really were a real scouter. You really are a piece of work Bobby." "You are so full of your self rightgeous self Bob there is no getting thru to that narrow little mind of yours" "The GREAT BOB has spoken everyone," "Man you love to twist other peoples words beyond recognition don't you Bobby" "Personally I don't think BW has all the experience he claims, he can quote a pub. source all he wants but most of his answers shows a real lack of experience ever leading any scout unit. Only in this forum can he pretend to be master scout of the world," "Your facts are once again false Bobby, your logic is as faulty as your incorrect interpretation of history and BSA policies. Even when you know you are wrong you will try to make others believe you are correct, lol. A real piece of work" "The only revisionist historian here is BW." "It amazes me the amount of misinformation he relates and he creates his own fantasy world of scouting where only he knows the rules." "Geesshhh now BW was the test subject for the new Wood Badge at Gilwell, another lie BW" Care to explain which one of these was your civil appeal? I will continue to post information supported by the resources of the BSA, you do what you want to do. I have nothing more to add on this topic.

Eagle 92 I agree that some scouts might be angry but they are going to be angry at the person who broke the rules and made them do the improper requirements not at the person who steps in to help them. They more likely will be relieved and quite pleased. What do you think would happen if you gave each scout his choice? Tell them they can each choose to either keep doing the extra work or just do the BSA requirements. Which do you suppose they would pick? Doing the wrong thing longer is never a good idea.

First, I don't think ANYBODY on this forum myself included is an expert on the BSA. I maintain the BSA is the expert on the BSA. Second, I am all for sharing ideas unless the idea is to tell people incorrect information about the policies, program, or procedures of the Boy Scouts of America and its programs. Third, You have discounted my experience a number of times, including saying that I have never been a unit leader, which is really kinda whacky considering that you haven't the slightest idea what my scouting background is. Fourth, All I know of your scouting experience is that you say you used to be a professional scouter. No one should care what you used to be, what matters is if you have accurate knowledge of today's Scouting program and the official resources for delivering a quality Scouting program to youth. You have constantly avoided using any BSA resource to support any of the times you have attacked me, so I have no way of knowing if you even know the program. In addition most everything you have posted has been contradicted by the contents of the current BSA resources and trainig syllabi. That is all I know about you. The BSA says what the BSA policies, procedures, and programs are, why does anyone need to know about our background? You could tell people that you used to be the King of Siam and there is no way to prove it. Here's a tip about forums, it's the Internet, trust no one and verify everything. The last thing I would want is for anyone to take my word for anything without first investigating the resources I share. As far as what we will do... I will continue to provide accurate information based on the contents of the BSA resources and training. So that folks can go learn the actual BSA program and not follow one person's personal opinion. What you do I have no control of, or interest in. Do not try to act like my friend. You posted (among other things)that I was "a complete waste of time". Do not think that I have any interest in being your friend.

Printman, Your office person unfortunately is incorrect and is likely going by beliefs built by years of urban legends. While on a national training staff this summer I brought in as a guest presenters Phillip Moore, the Assistant Director of of BSA Insurance and Risk Management, and Richard Bourlon, the Director of BSA Health and Safety Division. We asked them this specific question. Their explanation was that the Local Tour Permit is in no way related to BSA accident insurance coverage. The Local Tour Permiot is a planning tool to help units take appropriate safety planning steps in preparing for an outing, and If you have purchased BSA accident insurance or have it supplied by the council it is ALWAYS in effect on any official scouting activity. Now, can not filling out the Tour permit effect BSA liability protection for the Charter Organization and the registered adults on the trip? That is an entirely different situation and yes it possibly can. If you want to find out the answer for yourself on any safety or insurance related question you can e-mail Phil and Richard directly through the BSA website at http://www.scouting.org/HealthandSafety.aspx

"Follow up Bob - does any District or Council folks actually check the names of people that are signing these blue cards as counselors?" That's hard to say. With over 300 councils who can tell for sure what the record keeping process is in each. I can tell you that many councils do not even see the blue cards. They are recording the advancement off of an advancement record done either on-line or as a hard copy. It is only in the case of problem that the blue cards would be asked for and reviewed. Chances are in the case of a scout having a card from a counselor that was approved by the Scoutmaster but a counselor not registered with the council, the scout would still be credited for the merit badge but the Scoutmaster could potentially have his or her BSA membership permanently revoked. Not because of an advancement issue but because of a youth protection violation that he or she was in control of.

"(If I may suggest, I think what BobWhite misses is that there are two components of law/rules...statute, and precedent. In quotin' statute, he's doin' only da easier half of good jurisprudence. The harder and often more important bit is understandin' precedent, which interprets da laws for particular circumstances. Only taken together are they a system of rules for "program.") " I gotta tell ya Beavah that seems like lot of words just to make more excuses for not having to following the rules

See the problem here isn't about the Method of Advancement it is about improperly changing the requirements for advancement so that the scouts in this troop are forced to do requirements that are different than what the BSA has designed the advancement requirements to be. Beavah suggests changing slowly, so that scouts advancing now have to do the all wrong elemements, and ones who advance, let's say, in 3 months have to do most of the wrong requirements, and scouts who advance in 6 months only have to do half of the wrong requirements, and scouts who adavence in a year only have to do a few of the wrong requirements....etc. You do not correct scouts being cheated by removing the illicit obstacles a little at a time. How does that possibly help the scout? If you found a bully stealing your son's money would you say, "tell you what, for next month you only steal 75% of his money, and then the month after that steal half his money, and then the month after that you can steal 25% of his money... You think Scouts will quit the troop if you say, "I am really sorry but you have been made to do more requirements then actually exist, I think many of you have probably completed you next rank already, or are very close to it. So during the next week we are going to review everyone's advancement records and get you the recognition you deserve. From now on the only requirements you have to complete are in your Boy Scout Handbook. If you have any questions please call me." Why in the world would they quit??? Scouts deserve to have these unwarranted stumbling blocks removed at once not a little bit at a time wouldn't you agree? (This message has been edited by Bob White)

You know OGE much of the 'emotion' or 'attitude' read into my posts comes from attitude of the reader. You and I used to exchange some very friendly and supportinve posts when I started. Then posters were allowed to argue their points not based on the elements of the topic but on their personal opinion of me, or FScouter, or Docrwm. And you turned to the darkside. You have been convinced that giving the wrong information with a Boston accent or a questionable but 'professional" background is better than giving the facts from the offical BSA program training and resources. Posters were then allowed to insult me and others rather than to discuss the post. They were allowed to hurl insults at others in scouting who did not participate on the forum even when those people weren't actually involved in the problem but were thought to be because the poster had poor knowledge or no knowledge of the workings of the structure of scouting beyonfd the unit level. A Them Vs. Us attitude was allowed to flourish and as a moderator, you were one of the people that allowed that to happen because you made it clear that you did not like me. And others have taken advantage of your willingness to take sides. The forum became run by mob rule in my opinion. You seem to forget that when I was off the forum for over two years that people still posted insults about me and no one stopped them. When FScouter posted the correct scouting information and was attacked personally and had his posts misquoted, and no one stopped them. When Doc was insulted and misquoted, No one stopped them. Do I need to repost the name calling that you and other moderators have allowed Ed and BadenP get away with? The inaction of the moderators to stop the personal attacks by other posters has allowed them to become more bold because they know you do not like their targets. Is it any wonder I defend myself on occassion if the moderates will not moderate then who else is there to defend me, I am in the minority here as a supporter of the policies, proceduers, and program od the BSa. But it is after all a Scouting Forum, how can it possibly help anyone if you do not allow the actual elements of the scouting program to be shared? When people ask for help, I help, When they ask for the right answer I tell them what it is and where they can find it. When they tell me they are former pros or council commissioners or unit leaders who nearly collapse a troop, and they give the wrong information...I say they are wrong and direct them to the BSA resources to support it. I cannot help what you like or dislike. I can only tell you what the BSA program is and where to find it. I have never used my experience or credentials to tell anyone what to do on this or any forum. I give the BSA resources where they can go to learn the BSA program. Beavah dismisses me because I live in a smaller town than him, BadenP dismisses me because he doesn't think I have any Scout leadership experience. Ed...well that says it all about Ed. No one should decide what to do based on BadenP's credentials or Beavah's or mine. They should follow the BSA program. If BadenP's credentials are what make him a Scouting expert, then what happens when one of the thousands of Scouters with more crentials than him comes along, now who do you follow? The same thing for Beavah. if his opinion is what matters then what in heavens name happens to scouting should Beavah ever shed his mortal coil? (beilieve me BadenP you would not want to do a battle of Scouting credentials with the members of this or any other Scouting forum. Neither you nor Beavah would win.) The BSA is the expert on the Scouting program. I do not see how anyone can logically argue with that. That being the case, why not encourage posters with problems on how to solve them by geting back in line with the scouting program. The real problem is not that I share the Official program, the problem is that few others do. OGE you do not have to like the horse that truth rides in on, but you need to be able to know what the truth is.