Bob White

Dug, You might have an argument if public schools taught Character developement, Citizenship, and mental, emotional, and physical Fitness. But they don't...anymore. Except for physical fitness public schools are no longer interested in young peoples character. In their infinite wisdom, powerful political forces have removed those elements and any reference to them. I do not care if my son's scoutmaster is good at chemistry, teaching chemistry is not his job. I do not care what legal moral flaws his chemistry teacher has, he is not there to teach moral values. But we choose scouting for the values it teaches, and those who disagree with the BSA program, policies or values can also not choose it. Choosing part of it is not a option. If you choose the program then you choose ALL the program, or you are being dishonest to yourself and that is the last person you should cheat. BW

"While I am certainly not one of Bob White's biggest fans, What's that you say? You're not a certified member of the Official Bob White Fan Club? Don't wait, Join Today! Be the first on your block to be part of the nation's most moderately popular club. Guaranteed to bore your friends and incite my enemies. With every paid membership you recieve absolutely FREE!... > A 2-color weather resistant "I 'heart' the BSA and everything they have ever said or written" bumper sticker > A 3/8" diameter simulated metal "BSA Love it or Leave it" lapel pin > a life size full color..by number..poster of the complete and correct Official Boy Scout Uniform (Cub Scout uniform version available on request...with blue jeans) Crayons sold separately. > A suitable for laminating wallet-size club membership card that states "I am a member in good standing in the Official Bob White Fan Club, please use verbal insults only ...do not hit or spit" > AND the Bob White Spell Check Decoder Ring (not warranteed against defect, recommended for display and collection purposes only.) But how can I join? I can hear you ask. Simple, just send the UPC labels from any three official BSA resources and $38 for shipping and handling to: Bob White Fan Club PO Box 196W Prairie Grass, Ia 52601 To speed delivery enclose a SASE and your credit card. We will validate the charge and mail your card back with your membership kit. Be one of the first 500 to join and you could be one of three lucky winners to recieve the quarterly Quail-Notes official newsletter of the Bob White Fan Club FREE! Don't wait! Join Today! (

Yes can dual register, yes you can continue your OA youth participation IF you maintain your troop registration.

"BobWhite, those are interesting (and sad) statistics. I agree we have a retention problem. I wonder, do you have the statistics on whether new member recruitment is up or down, specifically? It would seem we would agree that is the salient fact to this discussion. I agree they are sad, they reflect a problem that I believe a couple of posters have referred to on an occasion or two, regarding the need for trained leadership and the importance of delivering a scouting program and not just any program in a scout uniform. But I digress. While I do not know the national recruitment numbers (our council has had two huge increases in a row) it can be mathematically deduced that if the membership rate in cubs only declined by a few percentage points, yet we know that we now lose over 40% of Cubs through drop out, that the number of new registers must far exceed the number of drops. So again the problem isn't the flowing stream of membership into the reservoir of Cubbing, the problem is in the dam program delivery. (and some say I have no sense of humor ) (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Eager Leader I am sorry to hear your son felt forced to practice a religion, that should not have happened. as far as having to "pledge faith to a being he cannot beliceve in" that ios a choice he is free to make but how then goes he fulfill his prmise to "do my duty to God"? No one is forcing him to believe, just as no one is forcing him or you to belong to an organization of believers. That was your choice. Why choose an organization that has a a manin tenet something you do not believe is true? Why did you choose to skirt around the advancement that had to do with duty to God? Why not investigate it as a family a choose outright whether to accept or reject the existence of God? And then live a life that was reflective of whichever commitment you chose? The bible says that faith alone is not enough, that by our actions faith is made perfect. In scouting two things are required and accptance in God no matter how you choose to worship Him, and actions to perfect that faith. You are not required to practice any religion. just as a side note. While the Declaration of Religious Principles was on the left, the signature line you signed as a ledaer said something similar to: I have read and accept the conditions of the Declaration of Religious Principles, if you did not see them then the probably should have asked before you signed saying you had. I once heard a good freind of mine who is a Presbyterian minister tell a scout, what's even more important than you believing in God is knowing that God believes in you. It is never to late to discover God's love. I hope you and your family remain open to that event. BW

For the record here was my source. http://old.mbconf.ca/mb/mbh3601/salary.htm

It should be pointed out that the BSA is the largest corporation of its kind. The Big Brothers and Big Sisters is not a similar size program by any means. It has far few employees, less properties to manage, fewere divisions, and if you measure the corporation size by the the annual organization income then the BSA is 5 times the size of the BB/BS program. "Does Mr. White do anything for Scouting besides blindly defend all and anything BSA on these boards?" Yes I do. Please do not make your opinion of me the topic of this thread. "BTW, I've been a Leader in Cub Scuts and Boy Scouts (A Den Leader and one of the adults that is there every meeting and trip Troop and Pack)- serving two units for a while now. I've gotten awards for my service and been a major donor as well. I have a more than a few years business experience and know what's well run and not." As do most of us on this board I would bet. "BSA doesn't even care about Boy Scouts anymore - they'd get rid of it if they could - that's where the risk and problems are. They LOVE Cub Scouts - More accurately they appreciate the fact that 8 out of ten Boy Scouts come from the Cub Program, as do many Boy Scout Leaders. We at the Distict, Council and National service levels understand that as the cub program goes.. so will the Boy Scout program 4 years from now. While Cub Scouts may raise the majority of Popcorn money remember that those are council and unit fundraiserss and not national. Pop Corn is not a BSA national program. Also consider that much of that cub scout raised money each year goes into paying for camp facilities used primarily by Boy Scouts that year. Cubbing has been better at raising money for many decades. Let's face it cubs are cuter. "The focus in BSA is on "numbers and increasing numbers" No actually, only the focus for those whose job it is to raise money and increase membership. There are some people who are given that task, but the vast majority of professionals and volunteers who make up council, regional, and national operations have other responsibilities. The majority of which is unit service such as training, commissioning, program, advancement, camping, resources, fascilities, high adventure, data processing, etc. Much of your anger comes from lack of knowledge of the scouting structure beyond the unit level. Thinking you teach "them" a lesson by not supporting FOS is misguided to say the least. FOS is what keeps your camps operating, your scout office staffed, your records maintained, your communications, your training resources. You might as well shoot yourself in the foot to protest the shoe industry. You don't think you are represented at the district and council level? Thats unfortunate and fixable. Every unit has a voting member of the district and council committee. Do you know who that person is? What are you doing to get that person at the meetings to represent your needs? BW

TJ The fallacy of your premise is that the loss of numbers comes from fewer joining, which is incorrect. The loss of membership in cubbing comes from cubs not re-newing the second year as Wolves and the second year of Webelos. Retention is the problem not recuitment, and the retention problem is tied directly to the unit program and not the membership resrictions. Current national figures show that 40% of Tigers drop out and 25% of Webeols 1. Solve the retention problem and you solve the membership loss. It is unrelated to the membership restrictions. None of your figures prove your hypothesis. While I understand that you "feel" this is the reason, you have not data to substantiate that feeling. Whereas the BSA knows exactly where the loss is occurring. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

I like to avoid the problem at the outset by trining the parents about wat scouting is and isn't. As a Cubmaster at the beginning of each year, We would sen the scouts either outside or to another room as we did a parent welome orientation to Scouting. Some do this as a written handout. I think that's a bad idea. To be effective this has to be a personal presentation. We explasin that the BSA isn't about canpming or hiking or buiding thongs out of toungues depressors even though we will do all those things. We teach stuff. We teach good stuff. In the course of their son's scouting career we will teach them things like, the importance of family and how to be a better family member, We will teach how to be a good citizen and how your community and nation works, we will teach them the importance of God and how you have a responsibility of service to your God. 10 out of every 100 boys who join scouting will get their first exposure to organized religion through scouting. While we believe that should come from the family it doesn't always, but it will come from scouting. We teach them that doing homework has rewards, and that being a good person does too. We will teach them the value of good health and how to make health choices throughout their lives. We let them know that how the advancment program works and who at what level can sign the book and how to use the advancement program at home to re-inforce positive behavior. We then introduce all the leaders and allow the parents to meet with anyone they want, and ask any questions they might have. In three years as a Cubmaster I never had a conflict over the ideals of the program with any parent. The only time a boy quit was when they moved or crossed over. Most problems come from poor communications. Tell them in advance how things work and then be consistant in your actions. BW

But TJ They TAY is determined only by age and gender it is not affested by the political views of the parent. Nor does your survey, or I would bet your second survey, say that the adults who think homosexuality should be excepted would withhold their youth from membership in the BSA because of it. So again you have nothing that shows your numbers to be statistically releveant to the membership of scouting now or in the future. BW

I don't think you are rabble rousing, but I do think your tossing around of a lot of unsupported numbers helps to feed the imaginations of an all to active rumor mill in scouting. Salaries of BSA professional will depend on the size and financial strength of the council, the experience and abilities of the executive, as well as the cost of living of the area served by the council. The starting salary for a DE is about $32,000, The Chief Scout Executive makes $328,000, The SE will make somewhere in between. In most cases the administative costs of a council are usually about 7% to 10% of the overall budget. That would include the professional Scouters and all other employees of the council. So no, you will not find an SE making $500,000 as you suggested. The high low range I have seen in my experience is $70,000 to 123,000 There could be some higher and some lower but that is what I have seen. If the program is working in the council, the camps are well run, there are a variety of activities, the office doos its job, then I don't pay attention to what they make, there are others in the council whose job is is to oversee that. I do my job, they do theirs.

You have one survey whose statistics you cannot verify as accurate based on a question not proven relevant to the problem, from that you believe you cab established trend? From one survey? You take that and create a hypothesis based on a theory that what isn't causing a loss of membership in one country ..is causing it in another? Two years ago the BSA surveyed a few thousand non-member scout aged boys who answered a blind survey showing they had an interest in outdoor activities such as camping, canoeing, rock climbing etc.. They were asked why they were not scouts. 80% answered that 'no one had asked them to join'. TJ if your survey were accurate the BSA would not need The 50% to 60% of the families who accepted homosexuality. If we just made sure every eligible scout was invited to join, we would have a larger membership.

SWScouter is close. You asked what training is absolutely required. That could depend on who you ask. What training is reqired for pack committee ...none. what is needed? Some. What works best? Lots! Training is an obligation you make to better serve the youth. in most instances it is not a requirement Fast Start is not required for the basic training award, it is a tool available to get you started with core information on your job in Cubs. The earn the Basic Training Award you will need 2 courses New Leader Essentials, and Pack Committee Job Specific Training Advanced training would be: Wood Badge for the 21st Century Supplemental Training would include: Youth Protection (which I highly recommend for every adult but is not technically required for pack committee) BALOO (Basic Adult Leader Outdioor Orentation)if you want to run a family camp Pow Wow Roundtable University of Scouting Philmont Training Center Conference (This message has been edited by Bob White)

TJ has expressed his homosexuality on this forum in the past, however he is not an avowed homosexual, meaning that he does not publicly affirm it, which makes him an eligible member of the BSA. But in this case he is loose with his statistics admitting that you can make figures say anything. A good example is the survey he offers us, asking a person "homosexuality should be accepted" could be interpreted in a variety of ways. Heck I accept it. I realize it exists and has existed for centuries. I know several gay people, I think most people do. I am not frightened of them, I don't dislike them. Would I want a avowed homosexual as a scout leader. No, but then I would want an avowed womanizer, and avowed speeder, and avowed non-voter. I'm picky about who acts as a role model in my son's life. So is the BSA. Would the the same response would be obtained by asking, "Do you think homosexuals are appropriate as a leader of your son's scout unit." I bet not. But as tjhammer said "We can find stats to say just about anything" That still does not change the fact that the BSA has never said that just anybody can be a scout leader.

Sure, for what position in scouting? Training varies with the specific job you do.

meamemg I am glad you are looking to follow the program. Since all the scouts in the group you are setting up are similar age and skill level this will be pretty simple. And, if you do it well they will stay together anbd grow as a team for years. First I would give them a copuple opportunmities to get to know eacjh other. Have a hobby night where everyone sets a a table of thier favorite hobby, put name tents on each table so the scout scan see whatthe other slike and look for things that interest them as well. Have a campout wher these twenty sit around tell jokes paly games and thenhave an open discussion on something that will help reveal something about the scouts to each other. Where do they want to go tho collefe, what profofession are they interested in, whose there favorite recording artist, what movies do they like. Finally give them ballots have them put their name on top followed by 5 scouts they would like to be in a patrol with. Then write me at bobwhitebsa@hotmail.com and I will send you a table chart that will allow you to graph their choices. You will easily be able to establish 3 patrols of 6 to 7 scouts and each boy should end up in a patrol with at least 4 of the boys he wanted to be with. Now you will have patrols of friends of similar age, skills and interests, and that should bond them quite nicely. BW

You said that "given the fact that a plurality of young parents with kids just entering Scouting age oppose the BSA's prejudicial policies?" Then you say that not only do you not have any facts but that "I imagine we could find "stats" to say just about anything" I imagine we could. The BSA has made it clear that they accept the fact that not everyone will meet the membership qualifications. If that does not bother the BSA then why let it bother you? BW

"given the fact that a plurality of young parents with kids just entering Scouting age oppose the BSA's prejudicial policies?" Data please.

A big Bob White call to you Andrew bobwhite! bobwhite! hmmmm Somehow a Bob White call doesn't have near the majesty on the internet as it has in the wild. Oh well, Congratulations on working your ticket!! Best wishes, Bob White

Are you familiar with the Serenity Prayer? Lord! Give me strength to change the things I can change, give me courage to accept the things I cannot change, and grant me wisdom to know the difference.

I learned of his scouting connection when I got to read a congratulatory letter from the Pontiff at an Eagle Scout Court of Honor about 8 years ago. In it he mentioned his time as a scout. A priest who was there told us of the Pontifs mention of scouting in a book he wrote. I have not seen any mention of it in the news coverage so far or found any info on the web about it.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

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Sorry, I should have said "recommends" and not "requires". BW

Snake Eater Its likely they will stay together much longer than a year and by their own choice. Why does staying together for a year to complete a goal seem unusual? The social needs and abilities of an 11 year old is not that much different than a 10 year old, or a 9 year old. The skill ability is greater so we increase the difficulty of the skill but reduce the amount of adult supervision. After a year the scouts have sufficient skills and understanding of patrol and troop operations to operate independently. The fact that leaders you know do not follow the way the program is designed does not make them correct or the BSA wrong. You need to take the time to learn the Boy Scout Methods and procedures before you determine which way is best. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Snake Eater, You have an incorrect perception of the purpose and operation of the NSP. As you enter the Boy Scout level you will find it explained in the Boy Scout Leader handbook and the SAcoutmaster Leaders Specific Training program.