Bob White

Do not confuse this with a patrol outing. At troop is a gathering of patrols. This is a troop outing as such you would need a minimum of two adults present. But. because of the great distance between the patrols you would best be advised to have 4 adults, two at each site. The purpose for adults is to supervise, and even with cell phones you cannot do your job from 2 miles away, a hundred yards or so perhaps but not 2 miles.

Hunt Your premise is flawed. the COs are not trumping the BSA in any way. With the exception of racial discrimination COs are allowed by the BSA to be more restrictive than the BSA membership standards. What you are suggesting is that they also be allowed to be less restrictive. Well what is the use of a law or policy if you allow anyone to be less restrictive? A comparable situation would be traffic laws. If the speed limit is 40mph it is legal to go 35 but you cannot go over 40. If the law allowed that, then the speed limit itself becomes pointless and chaos follows. Can you think of any national organization whose policies can be altered at will to be less restrictive? (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Merlyn, Since A)you are not a member of the BSA, B)you have no intention of becomeing a member C)this standard does not involve government funding or the use of government facilities, and D)this standard is readily available to all members, why do you care?

Give a man a fish you feed him for one day. Teach him to fish and he can care for himself for a lifetime.

Let me see if I understand your positon Ed. You say that if you see two people both obeying the rules, you know which one is mindless because he is the one who knows what the rule is. So then the one that doesn't know what the rule is what Ed? Merlyn, The BSA says that to be a leader you cannot be an avowed homosexual. Since the ACLU has never filed a lawsuit against Merriam-Webster you may be unfamiliar with the definition of "avowed". It means to state openly, bluntly, without shame. I, for instance, am an avowed supporter of the BSA. If a BSA member were to come up to me and state they were homosexual they would have violated that condition of membership.

Back in the day the Cub Promise include "to be square and obey the law of the Pack" The motto of the Cubs was "Be Square" before it became "Do your Best". I believe it was changed in the late 1960s or early 70s. BW

I believe your ASM is under the misconception that being a unit leader qualifies him as a MB counselor. What your son should do is et the SM to give him the names and contact information on registered and approved camping merit badge counselors in your area. If the ASM hapens to be one of them thsts great but he needs to be registered as a counselor for that badge. Also even if your son isn't in the PLC he can still make suggestions. And he can still make his needs for a project known. The first step though is to meet with a registered counselor. BW

Yes Yes

Who do you think would be the best person to ask that of?

hmmm Maybe they should follow the the rules and not tell me. I am certainly not going to ask them. I haven't had any one yet walk up to me me and volunteer that they are gay in or out of scouting. Have you ever had a scouter walk up to you and volunteer that information? I'll be honest if someone did that to me, my first thought would be that they are too stupid to be a scout leader not their to gay to be one.

Hunt Your are suggesting that the BSA about allowing each unit to determine what the values of the BSA are. Ed, If you saw two people obeying the rules how would you tell who is doing it mindlessly and who isn't?

If you are as skilled as your husband is wise then I would expect the troop to do exceedingly well. Bob White

There is another option to quitting that you might consider. I mean no disrespecct by this. Your problem is that you and your family have not made a decision about God. The solution is...make one. Take some time and you and the family seriously consider God. Pick three religious leaders and go talk with them. Don't ask about religion or about the rituals of religion ask about God. Then make a decision as a family. Be a family of faith or be a family that rejects faith but it can't be comfortable sitting on a fence. So pick a side of the fence and get comfortable. If you choose God that's great, I will personally celebrate for your family and would encourage you to jump full force into the service of scouting. If you choice otherwise then by all means try something else that you feel will develop in your children whatever values you choose to recognize. BW

District Director manages the other district executives in his or her distict. They in turn are managed by the Field Director.

There are dozens of district and council scouting positions, which you have depend on the size and strength of the council. Ultimately the responsibilities and hiearchy are determined by the SE but basically from entry level up a common configuration is District Executive Senior District Executive District Director Field Director Asst. Scout Executive Scout Executive Also somewhere usually between DD and SE you can find positions such as Ranger, Finance Director, Properties Director, Scout Reach Executive, Marketing Director etc.

Acco then I will ask, in your years as a scout leader, how often have you been asked if you were gay or asked if you were hetero and who asked you? I will ask the same to TJhammer a semi avowed homosexual scout leader, how often have you been asked if you were gay or asked if you were heterosexual? "What if there's a boy who's active in his high school's Gay-Straight Alliance as a gay member? If you found this out, wouldn't you consider it being "avowed" even if you knew nothing of his actual sexual history" That's a tough one to answer Zahnada. There appears to be quite a rash of people nowdays joining organizations that have values the don't approve of. Do you think a person would join a gay rights group who didn't support homosexuality? Do you think a gay rights group that had a member who didn't support their values would allow that member to become their leader?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I am unaware that the agnostics have any problems with words. they have a problem with faith. An agnostic by definition is a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (such as God) is unknown and probabaly unknowable by anyone. The agnostic doesn't believe or disbelieve in God the agnostic is unwilling to make a decision. There is an old joke Q. "how many agnostics does it take to change a light bulb" A. "I don't know that anybody can say for sure." Agostics choose not to commit to a belief or a disbelief. How as a scout can you promise to do your duty God but not have a belief in God? Doing your duty requires a personal committment to the objective of that duty. BW (This message has been edited by Bob White)

I'm sorry Acco, you asked the question, I had no idea you were asking an irrelevant one. Do you want to withdraw the irrelevant question? If so I will gladly withdraw my answer. BW

Two things, First while your Walmart model was true in its early days, business plans change as businesses grow. Now because of Walmarts buying power due to their shear numbers and ability to move large volumes of merchandise, they are able to negotiate down the cost of goods from the manufacturers and wholesale distributors. Walmart is notorious for dictating low profit margins they will allow their suppliers in return for the opportunity to have their goods moved in quantity through Walmart. Walmart is making as much profit if not more from the consumer than any other retailer by paying less for the product from the manufacturer. So to think that their good fortune in having lower costs are being passed on to you with lower gross profit is simply not true. Walmart is not your benefator in those low prices the people to thank are the manufactures who make less profit so to reduce the cost of their goods they move their plants to Mexico or overseas where they can take advantage of lower production costs. Secondly, I have found through a contact in a BSA store that the average profit margin on the official field uniform for the three programs is approx 15%. That is way below standard retail pricing. They do however make up for that on the sale of other BSA knick knacks. Rumors and gossip are always more fun to know than facts, has anyone else noticed that?

"and remains celebate but who, when asked," When asked by whom? If he or she were celibate what would someone have to ask to get that person to publicly avow their homosexuality. In all my years in scoouting and as a human being I have never asked anyone in or out of scouting if they were gay? I've never even asked anyone if their were hetero..was I supposed to? Who would do such a thing?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I must admit I have never heard the belief in God referred to as "limited" ever before. In fact just the opossits. A belief in God is limitless. It would have to if one truly accepted the existence of God. The word "God" is used by the BSA simply as a label to identify a supreme power, as you can see by the extensive list of religions that participate in scouting and in the The BSA's religious recognition program those religions you refer to are not bothered by the BSA's label so why would you be?

Nail your Theses to the door and begin your own organization as Martin Luther did, there is nothing wrong with that. While you will be missed, no one will try to stop you. Some will go with you, you may even end up with a movement as large or larger than the BSA. Or you may not. You need to do as you see is right for you, and the BSA and its members (who agree and abide by the values and policies of the program) will do as they see fit. Is that not the right thing for both of us? I believe the BSA does uphold the constitution. The Supreme Court of the United States says they do as well. Aren't they the ones who make that determination according to the Constitution? I think the problem is not the Constitution but your opinion. You want the BSA to change becasue you personally disagree with it. But the BSA does not exist to meet everyones personal opinion. The volunteer executive board has decided on numerous occassions the values that the program will embody. Your participation is voluntary. Hammer and nails are free upon request. I wish you nothing but success with your new organization.

Not sure what your unit teaches but in scouting we teach that being obedient isn't mindless it's part of a citizens resonsibility to his comunity and is also part of being courteous. Are the scouts in the unit you serve expected to follow the rules of the troop and charter organization, or would that be consider mindless? If you agree that the BSA representives don't say those things in public then why did you suggest that they did? In they say it in private then how do you know they say it at all? Since when is passing a petition to demonstrate the support of scouting to the United Way equivalent to denigrating them? Your arguments are not consistent or substantiated by your own comments. No one argues that the unit level is where the program takes place. But you seem to think that you could survive if national did not exist. And you could not. How can you give each unit the ability to make all their own choices and still have a national program? How could resources be developed if everyone made up their own program as things went along? Can you imagine what would happen to college basketball if every team could make its own rules? There are thousands of scout units, without a central program and suuport structure the units would cease to exist. Which brings us back to the membership numbers. The problem is not recruitement the problem, as you poiited out, is that scouting takes place at the unit level, and if the unit program isn't the scouting program then kids quit. More trained leaders who understand the program and focus on the unit rather than on politics will be what solves the BSA membership problem.

"they think nothing of denigrating groups like the United Way for refusing funding simply because they are standing up for THEIR beliefs." I do not know who "They" are in yor mind but in nearly 30years as an adult leader and a distcict and council committee mememeber and in by dealings with representatives of the national office I have never heard a BSA professional or representative say a bad word about the UW. First anyone who knows how the UW works understands that every decision is a local one, and just because your UW didn't support the program in the way you would have liked doesn't mean others don't. Second, things change, money you didn't get this time you might get on appeal or next year from a different committee make up, so you never burn your bridges. Now, have uninformed volunteers said it? Sure, but untrained leaders say alot of things they shouldn't. We too have Character Counts in a few of our grade schools. Funny they won't charter scouting but they will pay for a program that is based on scouting. In fact I know an area coordinator for CC and she was hired because she was a scouter and so she "already knew the program" as the company said when they hired her. But very few scools have CC. "I've seen many comments here stating that the gay policy is in keeping with the religious beliefs of the members commenting." You will see a lot of things on this forum that isn't true. But you cannot hold things against the BSa that the BSA did'nt say or do. If you have a problem with what a poster said then take it up with the poster but don't think that what they say is what the BSA said. "However, they believe, as many of us do, that the local units do such good work that they will try to look past what they see as the errant policies of the national organization, and hopefully work from within to enact change." That's a good way to approach it. Follow the rules until the rules change. Accept the rules until the rules change. Speak positively of the organization you belong to if you choose to belong to that organization. Do your job well enough to establish you credibility in the movement so that your ideas and recommendations have more weight than a discontented politically motivated protester would have. A Scout is Loyal and Obedient. BW

Yes, The troop program revolves around the Patrol Method. the troop is only a gathering of patrols. The SPL is not "in charge" of the troop, he is the elected coordinator of the Patrol Leaders. The troop will only be as effective as the individiual patrols. Just about everything the troop does is actually done by a patrols or as patrols. You have correctly identified some of the results of proper use of the Scouting Methods. BW