Bob White

Ozemu The YP requirements for two deep leadership requires that Two registered adult leaders, or one registered adult and a parent of a participating Scout, one of whom must be at least 21 years of age or older, are required for all trips or outings. So if one of the two adults is not a registered leader he or she must be the parent of a scout on the trip.

1.When he sees one that intersts him. 2.That one.

First I realized the typo after the post was sent and I was unable to get the subject line to change. Second, If you have no knowledge to share on the topic the trend here seems to be to attack the poster, as recent posters voluntarily have displayed for us. Third, Pertinent means relevant, related, or important. It has nothing to do with being black and white, or middle of the road, as an example... Messages which are written only to insult me are not pertinent to the topic of this or any other thread. Lastly, I have not insulted or attacked a single person on this forum, yet a poster has suggested that if the BSA changed its rules I would leave my wife and take on an alternative lifestyle. Another has claimed that my father, a long time ordained Deacon in the Catholic Church before his death, is as guilty as the priests who abused children since as a "worker bee" he must have known about abuse and just didn't report it. So if you are looking for new lows to sink to...new standards have been set on this forum by these two that I think you will find difficult to match. So if it is not asking to much discuss the threads, debate the topics, debate vigorously if you choose. But the personal attacks are uncalled for. Choosing to berate my family is cowardly. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Scouting was created in time of great social turmoil. Its founder saw the need for an activity for boys to discover and practice the traditional values that he believed made for better men. Self-reliance, personal goal setting, ability to evaluate and solve problems, fitness (mental, physical and emotional), the ability to lead under pressure, faith in God, duty to country. Traditional values. Are there other traditional values? Yes, but these are the ones he designed the program for. Scouting was and is based on a traditional lifestyle. Were there alternative lifestyle in B-Ps time? Certainly there were. Were there alternative values at that time, yes there were. But those are not what the program was ever about. This is a traditional program for people who want their children to learn traditional values. Homosexaulity is an alternative lifestyle, even its supporters have to concede that. The BSA is not an alternative lifestyle or even a progressive lifestyle program. It is for adults and youth who find value and worth in the same traditional family values. If you seek to promote alternative values or an alternative lifestyle then find, create, adopt, adapt, a progressive and alternative program. Why must this one program fit everyones needs? Is it perfect? No. Can it be made perfect? No. It is what is, everday people with traditional values following a program that uses the outdoors as a classroom for explaining and teaching tradional family values that it has represented for almost 100 years. And for millions of families those centuries old values work for us. It gives us a chance to build a strong foundation for the first few years of our son's lives so that they have the ability to make their own decisions and build whatever structure they choose on top of it. I once spoke before a town committee about the scouts using a facility that other organizations in town get to use, but they were considering not letting the scouts use it. Their reasoning was our membership rules. This was the 8 member panel on Humam Relations. The vote was going to be 6 against and two for the scouts. I asked how many members of the panel had been Boy or Girl Scouts. Six of the eight. I asked how many were Eagles four of the eight. I asked how many felt that their time in scouting helped to prepare them for the life they lead today and the decisions they have to make on this committee. Six out of Eight. I explained that we are the same organization that we were when they were scouts, and that we prepare kids to day to become the same kind of individuals that the members of this committee have become. Then I asked them to vote. 7 Voted for the scouts and 1 abstained. It is what it is, and it cannot serve all values at once, no organization can. It is a program of traditional family values and it is sought out by millions because of that. Just because it may not be what you want it to be is not reason enough to change it from what it has always been. BW

Prairie I would like to know about how different the BSA is from the other WOSM members. Of the reamining 152 countries exactly how many other countries have a policy that allows for avowed homosexuals to be unit leaders?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

You are wrong Prairie Foto has made it clear in his posts and in a private message that he does indeed hold that all priests and those around them are all bad due to the actions of the few and the role the everyone else played in hiding it. EVERYONE. His did not generalize about any other groups other than priests and presidents. He believes its wrong to generalize about homosexuals but has no qualms generalizing about priests. Not that other religions haven't had problems Only Roman Catholic Priests. He is not the only one however. Several posters have expressed their stance on how we should accept others beliefs and values, just not the ones of those who disagree with them. In fact look at the predjudice so many have shown by assuming my position without having any facts. Bigots reside on both sides of this issue. For insatnce look at the number of posters who have assumed what my thoughts are with a total lack of evidence. Thay are every bit as predjudiced as those they bemoan. Then look at those who allow some posters to behave in truly disgusting ways like Dug did, without even blinking an eye over it. That they would set aside their own values and accept that behavior only because it was aimed at someone they have determined disagrees with them. Had I said to another poster "If you agree with homosexual leaders then why don't you leave your wife etc.."" As Dug had posted then the same people who ignored his post would have been all over me. But no one said a word. Hypocrites, bigots, predjudice, they exist on each side. The BSA has said, Our job is to serve youth, we are not a political organization. So long as people continure to treat it as one the BSA will stay away from the discussion. As long as the tactics used are ones of extortion the BSA will not get involved. They have removed themselves from the very behavior so many here are wallowing in. One poster would take an all homosexual leadership team over untrained heterosexuals...but they will need alot more parental overseeing... really? Why would you feel that way? What is it you would be concerned about? How hypocritical. Others would take them because they are trained...good for you.. but why aren't those same people as vocal today about the units with untrained leaders that actually exist as they are about a hypothetical situation on a topic they have no control over. How about we fix the problems we actually have first. Look at the number of posters who didn't want to se the COs more involved yet it is the involved COs who sit on the executive board and make the membership decisions. You want change you just don't want the people who make the change involved. You think only the very best of homosexuals will become scout leaders? Really? Are we getting the very best heterosexuals? The BSA wants leaders selected based on their character not the sexuality. That is their current stance. It leaves the door open for homosexuals and heteros alike. Do we have the best character available now? You wouldn't know it from these threads. Bigotry, predjudice, hypocracy, and that's from the side that sees themselves as the good guys who want equality for everybody. I'd be ashamed to associate with either side. Both your politics and behaviors embarrass me. I will stay with the BSA stance, select good leaders, do not allow your sexuality to interfere with the program.

Just so we are straight here Presidents and priests are the only ones who have ever done anything wrong. Oh and the Scouting professionals. But volunteers have never run off with kids money, abused children, had affairs, or teachers, teachers have never done any thing wrong with their students, and athletes, atheletes are still our heroes because they have never done anything worng. But ALL priests and all presidents are guilty. You know whats funny. I haven't answered the question and you "think" I am a bigot. You answered it and proved you are. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

"The same information age that brought us new truths about priest and presidents, also brought us new truths about gays." What do you say those truths are? All priests are bad, but homosexual Scout Leaders are good? You shouldn't look up to the office of President of the United States but you should look up to a gay scoutmaster? What exactly are you saying?

Fair enough Prarie Scouter I am always open to learning new facts. Can you offer me a CO in your council with deeper pockets than the BSA. PRAIRIE we have been through this before. POPCORN is not a national program it is a local council program. The profits are split between the council and the unit. National, the folks who will be sued, don't get that money. You really need to learn about the operation of the BSA beyond the unit if you are going to be criticizing the hard work of other people. If unit leadership is not fulfilling and you want to get involved at other levels have enough courtesy to stop and learn a little about it before you decide all the things you "think" they should be doing. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

What does what other countries do in their scouting program have to to with the BSA? How come the only elements of scouting anybody ever talks about when the want to be like other countries is having homosexual leaders and different uniforms uniform. Gay men and fashion... is anybody else giggling right now?

I'm sure you are right Prairie Scouter. I mean what lawyer is going to think that the national office of the Boy Scouts of America with 10 thousand employees and nearly 3.5 million members would have deeper pockets than the 75 member Post 192 of the American Legion. What was I thinking?

Now you seem to overlook the minor point that the BSA doesn't want to open the program to homosexuals and has no intention to.

Now I am curious foto, Why is it you don't say all the Presidents as a collective you only single out the one who you feel was a bad role model, yet you group all priests and not just the few that did wrong. Why is it that you see all Catholic priests as guilty, but only the one president? Interesting.

Finally Ed The guy who ran the stop sign was guilty even if HE THOUGHT it didn't belong there and worked to change it. He still has to obey the law. So the one who stopped because he followed the rule was right to stop. Whether the sign may be moved in the future or not, the ones who obey the rules and stop are right and the one who disobeyed is wrong. If you obey the rules it doesn't matter why because the right thing to do was to obey the rule. So who is mindless the law keeper or the law breaker? So to bring this back to the topic, following the rules is good, trying to change the rules is good if that is what you bekieve needs to be done. Complaining but taking no real action is bad Following a program that works is good, not following the program is...bad. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Ed I did not answer the question and you have no right to try and answer it in my name. You are welcome to give your opinion. but you are not welcome to make up mine. I would ask that you edit your post(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I apologize if I made the question too confusing. I will try again. A) You see two drivers obeying the rules of the road. Which one is mindlessing following the rules and which one isn't. B) You stop and ask one driver why he was driving the speeed limit. He answers because that is the posted limit for this street. Is he the minless driver or the other one? C) A third driver comes along, you see him him speeding snd running stop signs, when arrested and brought before the judge he pleads not guilty on the grounds that he is not a mindless driver like those who obet the rules, he is an innovator lokking for a better way to drive because he knows he has better ideas than the people who mad the rules. Does the judge 1) congratulate him on his innovative methods and creative approach to the rules of the road rather than follow mindlessly. Or does the judge 2)fine him for being breaking the laws of the community.

You need to check wwith the State Park, they will probably require adults in each campsite not just nearby.

Semper, I had no idea that anyone was required to answer either.

Given the choice, would you rather your son be in a scout unit with all homosexual scout leaders or all untrained scoutleaders?

I know troop 24, I have been to some of the eagle Courts of honor there when I was the Scout Roundtable Commissioner there. Mr. Phillips and I did a lot of scouting together. You have good adult leaders in your troop. You need to ask that question of them and they can help you with some ideas.

Hunt how can I get you to see that you again give an example of how the COs are allowed to be more restrictive but not less. You cannot have a rule and then allow others to create one that is less restictive and still have any pupose to having the rule. Lokk at it it this way The BSA says you cannot have alcohol on at a scouting event when children are presnt. If the Co wants they can be more restrictive, The can say you can't have alcohol at their units scouting event even if their are NO children present. they cansat you can't have alcohol or caffiene products. They can say you can't have Kool-aid if they want. They can be more restrictive than the rule. BUT they cannot be less restrictive, They cannot say have alcohol whenver you want scouts or no scouts. They can't say that scouts can have alcohol when no adults are around. They can't say you can have beer but no hard liquor when scouts are around. More restrictive but not less. That is not trumping the BSA that is working within their rules.

Prairie Scouter, You have much to learn about the BSA . There is no national liabibility insuruer with deep pockets. The BSA is self-insured. Any fines paid by the BSA in liability cases comes directly from the assets of the BSA. If you are unwilling to buy uniform pants due to price, then you would not be willing to pay the membership fee the BSA would have to charge to buy liability protection from an insurance provider for every adult. That is why you need to follow the bold printing the G2SS, If you expect the BSA to pay your bill you had better be playing by their rules. It is estimated the Sun will become a Red Giant and consume the Earth in about...well...about the time the BSA changes it's values as described by Semper.

Actually, I do not think he should ask his counselor, I know he should. Because if he follows the answer that any of us give him it is quite possible for the counselor to want something different. So for the scout to ask us is innapropriate for the purpose of the merit badge. Anyone who might post wanting to know how to do a MB requirement shouldn't be asking us, they need to talk to their MB counselor. The counselors thoughts and opinions are the only ones that count in this case.

Prairie Scouter, Would you answer two questions for me. 1. In what other areas of your life do you pick and choose which rules and laws you will follow and which ones you will not, or do you only do that in scouting? 2. Are the Scouts in the unit you serve allowed to follow only the rules they like and ignore the ones they do not, or are they expected to follow all the rules the troop has made?

Merlyn, The information I share on this board is for the benefit of scouters, scouts, and families of scouts, who are looking to enjoy the program. Since you do not fit any of the elements of that profile I have no interest in helping you. You choose to spend your time attacking a program that means a great deal to me. I could not care less where you get your answer, knowing as I do that you will only look for ways to use it to further your goal and not Sscouting. Please do not write me again.