Bob White

Well the son and I have our footlockers and our packing list, Yesterday out Jabo stuff arrived. Verynice quality by the way. Don't know how I missed it but I forgot to order the neckerchiefs so I will ned to do that this week. This is my son's first and last Jambo so I let him order anything he wanted. Oh Well I guess college can wait a semester or two. I plurged and got the broad rim shade hat, It is very nice quality and a little chearer than the Columbia equivalent. Son got a staff shirt, the wicking t-shirt, back patch, belt buckle, belt, key ring, ball cap etc. etc... Thats Ok I remembr my frist Jambo and I went a little nuts too, If I could do it over I wouldn't change a thing. Remember BIG APPLAUSE when the scout band plays, that's my boy up there!

The term agnostic whether a theistic or atheistic one denotes somoeone who does not believe a diety can be proven to exist. Hundreds af millions of people and the BSA disagree. To believe and still not fully comprehend the state of being of God, or Gods actions and designs is one thing, but you cannoy fulfill your resonsibility as a BSA leader if you cannot come to terms with the fact of existence of God.

Being open to an idea is not believing, besides that is only part of the equation. If you look at the definition of agnostic it's just that they cannot believe one way or another, they don't see how anyone can believe one way or another. How can a person who feels that way be expected to help others learn Duty to God, or Reverence?

"My point is Atheists arent buying airtime to convert anyone." What exactly would they offer as benefits that would persuade a believer to change? Holidays? Retirement benefits? Healthcare?, A big Club house to meet in? Family outings?, Catching songs? Those are just a few things that faith and religion offer. What have you got?

Blade Why could not respect the fact that evangelicals faith was different than yours, and respect them simply because they too believed in God. There are an awful lot of different religions out there, does each need to wait for you to read up on them before they can expect you to act respectfully toward them?

Depends on the condition of the tent and the terrain. Normally a tent of good construction and god condition will normally only need one outside if at all.

You can simply elect the patrol leader and let him pick the other offices since there is only one patrol there would be no need for patrol and troop positions. Troops exist when patrols gather, One patrol is just that...one patrol. As other scouts are added you can expand to include troop positions. BW

What made Karol Wojtyla a great Pope is the same thing that makes some people great scout leaders. He understood the program he was entrusted with and followed it as closely as he could.

Ijnrsu, "In effect BSA leaves it up to each Unit to decide what to do. BSA Policy for Advancement never has said can't do this or you can't do that." Where did you ever get that impression? Have you ever read the BSA Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual? There are all kinds of regulations governing advancement, and you seem to be in violation of most of them.

As a practicing Roman Catholic I must say that I found Blades reply far more offensive than anything that FB said. I really do not see the need to criticize anyone for not understanding any religion. There are many Jews who do not fully understand Judaism, Catholics-Catholicism, and Islamics-Islam. Faith and religion is a personal journey for each us who makes the choice to walk the path. Atheists do not believe there is a path. Agnostics do not believe that anyone can prove that a path actually leads anywhere, so they see no need to walk it. But for the rest of us, why does my path have to be better than yours. If you saw the interviews with Gilbert Levine the "Pope's conductor" then you heard how Levine, a non practicing Jew was motivated by the Pontiff to look deeper into his Jewish faith. He said the Pope never tried to get him to step toward Catholicism. Levine had a faith he simple needed to practice it, and that is all the Pope ever urged him to do. If the head of our church felt the most important thing was to influence people to grow deeper in their own faith than why would that not be true of the rest of us? There are no recruiter patches in religion so as scouters why try to earn them?

I thought the part of religious commercials was pretty obvious and well understood. If you want one you have to buy one. LDS commercials exist because someone bought them. If as an atheist you wanted a commercial on TV or radio then you would have to buy it same as everyone else. There is no movement keeping atheist or theist commercials off the air. Each have equal opportunity.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

If cabins are used there must be separete sleeping facilities for male youth and female youth. Male adults may be in the same cabin as the male youth but they must have a privacy barrier that blocks the view of each group form the other. There must be a minimum of two Youth Protection trained adult males in the cabin with the boys, or no adults at all. Adult females must be in a separate sleeping facility from the adult and youth males. They may stay with the female youth.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

What gets on TV, and what does not, is based entirely on its ratings. Except for PBS, local public access, and cable (which makes its money by subscription) a TV shows purpose is to get you to watch TV commercials. The more people you can get to watch your show the more you can charge for the commercial time. You will not find TV shows based on topics that only a small proportion of people will watch. Christians outnumber all other religions in North America and Canada 40 to 1. Is it really any wonder why there are more Christian TV and radio shows? There are lots of TV and radio shows on Islam, just not in the North American market, just as you won't find Christian shows in high Islamic population regions of the world. Atheists make up such a tiny percentage of the population that you could not get a large enough viewership to be financially viable. Can you think of a product that is user specific to atheists that could draw advertisers to such a show? There are non-Christian shows however in local market areas. I remember as a kid in the Chicago area watching "The Magic Door" each Sunday, It was a childrens show that taught about Judaism, my parents never objected, my brothers and I found it fun and interesting. So to think atheists are under represented in commercial media due to Christian pressure is incorrect. Atheists simply do not represent a large enough segment of this continent to be commercially feasible audience. As far as Atheists as an apostolic movement their success at that would be dubious at best. The theists of the world, regardless of there religious family or sect, all believe that God (in whatever form you recognize God) have given us all a great gift. Atheist have chosen to ignore both the gift and the gift giver. To try and convince others to relinquish both would be a very difficult sell indeed.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

You may use the scout salutes when "in uniform" for Boy Scouts that means the Official Uniform , also called the Field Uniform, and the Ativity Uniform. There is no such thing in scoting as a "class B" uniform.

Leave room for FScouter and TheScout, I am betting they will want in as well.

Given the choice, would you rather your son be in a scout unit with all homosexual scout leaders or all untrained scout leaders? We have seen some interesting answers. I asked the question because both are possible already although one is more prevalent than the other. How hypocritical it would be to want the program opened to homosexuals but would rather have your child in a unit with untrained adults than all homosexual leaders. How hypocritical it would be to want homosexuals in scouting but then feel it would mean greater vigilance. Why would it need greater vigilance? You foresee a greater danger and yet you promote it anyway? Scouting is an educational method, a program. You cannot teach what you do not know or understand. I would not send my son to a school with untrained teachers. I would not enroll in a troop with untrained leaders. I find it amazing the numbers of posters who see homosexual leaders as preferable over untrained heterosexuals and yet untrained leaders is a real and current problem in scouting causing most the problems brought to light on this and other scout forums. But few scouters on this board give any energy to addressing that problem. You spend more time bemoaning something you have no control over, but cover your eyes regarding a problem that exists in many of your own units or units in your community. While you debate the BSA membership rules we lose thousands of actual members due to poor unit programs. As far as the homosexual lead units As I have said before the BSA is a program based on traditional family values. No matter what your feelings are regarding the individuals themselves, there is no denying that homosexuality is an alternative lifestyle whether you believe it to be a choice or not. It does not represent "traditional" family values. They can no more fill the responsibilities of Scout leadership than an untrained leader could. If you dont understand that children learn, and form personal choices, just from observing and evaluating the adult role models in their life then you are oblivious to the impact of who and what you are in the development of the scouts around you. I am not just singling out gays but any adult whose personal behavior whether in or out of uniform does not reflect the traditional values that this program is built around. I think that COs need to select leaders more carefully. I hold strongly the right of the BSA to place limits on membership largely because there are all kinds of COs and not all do their job correctly and the BSA has a responsibility to protect itself and its members by setting limits. This idea of total local option is hugely flawed. The CO owns the unit, but the BSA owns the program. No one has the authority to alter the program other than the BSA. Who is a member, and who leads, are vital elements of that program. While some may not see the condition of an all homosexual leader unit as possibility it is possible now, (though unlikely due the attention that would be drawn to it) and it would be inevitable if the BSA altered its rules. Given the choice of an all gay leader unit or an all untrained hetero leader unit, my family would choose the same thing that EagleInKY, and Laurie chose, he would be in neither. I think that would be the large scale result. The untrained leaders are not going to run out and get trained just because the membership rules get changed, and most families are not going to choose units with homosexual leaders if they have another local unit to join. So the overall membership would suffer greatly. I am posting this as late as I can to minimize the name calling behavior that a few posters have chosen to use in response to almost anything I post.

Would you mind if I stood with you also Eamonn? BW

This line was intended to be "Again this is not the place for a religious discussion but the crucifixfiction was going to happen not because of anything done by man, but because in had to happen." I apologize for any confusion. BW Semper, You started this yesterday not a couple days ago. No matter when you started it I am not convinced that debating the crucifixtion is appropriate on a scouting forum. I had no intention of it becoming that when I responded to the comment that Jesus was a felon. I have no reason to ask for the thread to close, I was asking for a little self-restraint from posters.

The people asked for the death penalty. The death penalty was determined prior to any criminal indictment. Again this is not the place for a religious discussion but the crucifiixfiction was going to happen not because in had to happen. Remember that Jesus knew before his arrest that he was going to tortured and executed. He made references to it long before those things took place. He existed for that event to happen. Here is a website you might find thought provoking. http://www.christiancourier.com/archives/implicationsJesusTrial_2.htm

Rws5374 in The Handbook is more than just the pages with the requirements in them. The majority of the Handbook is information explaining how to do the requirements. For instance on page 241 it explains how to make a comfortable ground bed. You will see it has little relation to Leave no Trace methods. BW

"I know what my choice will be." And there is the rub ijnrsu. Scouting isn't about your choices as an adult is it? It's about the scout learning to make his own choices. The Boy Scout Handbook says that the first step in earning a merit badge is "the scout chooses...". The BSA Advancement Policies and Procedures manual says that a boy can begin working on merit badge at any time after he joins the troop. Perhaps what the troop leaders should consider choosing is for everyone to follow the program. Acco, I never said he should get started. The question that was asked was, which MB he should start with. Not how should he get started. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Caiaphas had no authority to convict only to indict, which is why he was sent to Herod. Herod, refused to convict him and sent him Pilate, who send him back to Herod, who sent him back to Pilate. Pilate said "I find no fault in this man" and then washed his hands sigifying that neither he nor Rome would be responsible for him. Jesus was never convicted of a felony by the state or the Roman empire. He was charged of a crime by Caiaphas in what appears to be an illegal hearing since it was held at night. Jewish law required such hearings to be held in the light of day. (that last part was just a historical side note). Source: The Bible While I do not claim to be a biblical scholar and I am sure that different group may have differing opinions, my point was the shared qualities of Jesus and leadership in scouts or any other walk of life. Please remember this is a scouting forum and not a religious debate forum. It would be unfair to turn it into one.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Prairie writes "My statement comes from what I suppose is personal experience. If you look at the stand on gays, for example, that has it's roots in primarily Christian religions" Is that so? Are you sure? Then how do explain the fact that homosexuality was viewed by some cultures and religions as wrong, and was punished by society long before Christianity existed. "I never said that other religions aren't active in Scouting. What I said was I thought that BSA (and by that I meant the BSA National leadership) would be happy to make the group into something restricted to believers in Christian religions." If that were in fact the case, then why in 95 years haven't they? They are a private organization and have the ability and authority to say whatever they want. So if that is wanted they wanted to do...then why haven't they? "And, even Webster's definition of "tradition" doesn't disallow the possibility of traditions changing over time. Now why would a definition include something that was not relevant to the word it was defining? Isn't the value of a dictionary definition in the fact that it tells you what a word means? Now you want to make the dictionary bend to you personal opinion as well as scouting? "The rest of your comments are difficult to respond to because while I could locate concrete sources of information, I expect that anything I mentioned would be attacked because of its source because, unfortunately, there are very few unbiased sources of information on these kinds of subjects, as we all know." Why not share your source and let others determine it's value? If it is authentic how could anyone ignore it. I would especially be interested in your source that there were no women in scouting until fairly recently. "you and Bob think I'm wrong, I will turn the challenge back to you. Find credible sources for the Worldwide Scouting movement that says that the majority of other national Scouting programs actively block gays from participation." You have got to be joking! You make an unsupported claim, admitted afterwards that you had NO proof whatsoever for what you said, and now you want us to prove it or disprove it for you? It's your claim you do the leg work! OGE is right.

Trevorum, I believe you are factually incorrect. Jesus was never found guilty of any charges. He was sent back and forth between Pontius Pilate and Herod, neither being willing or able to actually convict him. In fact pilate found him innocent of any crime. I think Jesus' life is an excellent example of what a good scout leader should be, or a good parent, a good minister or priest, a good politician, a good friend, a good anything. I find little in his life for anyone to not want to emulate. So while he was an executed prisoner and an accused felon, he was never a convisted one. So yes I think he would have made an excellent Scout leader. He certainly was experienced at being ridiculed for having followed the program he accepted the responsibility to lead.(This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Where do you get your facts from Prairie? There are dozens of different religions that are actively involved in scouting. The Jewish faith alone is very active in scouting. Bahai, Buddist, Hindu, Islam, Meher Baba, Morovian, Quakers. I know leaders of scout units at synagogues and Buddist Temples. How did you figure that the BSA is only open to Christians? I am also at a loss as to where you get your definition of "traditional". The Merriam-Webster Dictionary certainly doesn't support your definition. It says.. 1 : an inherited, established, or customary pattern of thought, action, or behavior (as a religious practice or a social custom) 2 : the handing down of information, beliefs, and customs by word of mouth or by example from one generation to another without written instruction 3 : cultural continuity in social attitudes, customs, and institutions 4 : characteristic manner, method, or style That is a far cry from your definition of "Traditional" is a changing model that evolves over time" You wrote "Women, until a short time ago, weren't allowed to participate in Scouting in the U.S" Thats not even close to accurate. Women have been involved in scouting for several decades. They were only restricted from a few select positions like Cubmaster, and Scoutmaster and maybe Webelos Leader, that was so long ago even I don't remember. "While they have been welcomed in Scouting Worldwide for a very long time." Another absolutely baseless statement. Share one credible source to verify that statement! There are 153 scouting programs recognized by WOSM, do you have any knowledge of how many others allow women in every role in scouting or at what point in time they were allowed? There were women in the BSA before some countries even had a scouting program. How can you make wild statements like this when you must be aware that there are posters on this board who have been in scouting a long, long time and know these statements are without any credence? "Maybe the problem is with the people who demand that BSA retain outmoded relics of old "traditional values" that no longer reflect the values of the nation, and instead only reflect their own desire to remain in some set of 19th century values." Actually the values we prize the most go back long before the 19th century, and we find they still work very well as core values today. That is the premise that scouting was built on. You cannot change that without changing the entire program. And if you are going to change everything, then why not just begin a new program that is what you want it to be from the start?