Bob White

I am not understanding your point meameng. Is it your belief that in order to do your job that everyone else must have taken the same training you did, or have a written explaination of what your job is and how you are supposed to do it? If you have a scout attend Junior Leader Training can he only do his job if all the other scouts have also gone? I really do not get your point on this. BW

If you agree that the use of vulgar language can interfere with the delivery of the program then yes the BSA program does say to send the scout home. As far as who makes the judgement, if you recall the BSA Scoutmaster/assistant scoutmaster training, then adult leader has that responsibility. Will I send a scout home who refuses to shower? More likely I will send him swimming. But if his behavior became a health issue that affected him or those around him then yes, he would go home. "A Scout is Clean".

Nowhere in that post were you attacked Backpacker. You suggested that Wood Badge needed to be staffed by Scoutmasters ("Woodbadge, etc. are trainers who have never been scoutmasters") and I was surprised by that since having taken Wood Bagde as often as you have you know that it is not a "Boy Scout" course. There was not a malicious word or intent anywhere in my post. I really do question how often a person teaches a scout course who isn't a leader in that program. I'm just not sure your concern happens often enough to really be a problem of any real scope. While I agree that there are good trainers and bad trainers I disagree with the criteria one should use for that evaluation. The prime evaluator is not their personal experience, they are not there to teach "their" program. The best way to determine the quality of the trainer is... did learning take place. Whether the trainer is currently a scoutmaster, recently a scoutmaster, or a committee member. If learning took place then the trainer was successful. Can you think of anything more important?

It really does not matter. The boy, by his own admission, did not accept the exitence of God. And while his religion may believe that God has not given up on him, neither God not the religion were seeking the Eagle rank. The boy was and he admitted he did not meet the requirements of membership or advancement in the BSA. While there is no point in reprimanding those involved for ignoring their duties it can serve as a lesson to others who may be in a similar situation to be more responsible in seeing that the scout has indeed met ALL the requirements for the rank they are applying for. BW

I'm surprised by your comment Backpacker, I thought you said you had served on Wood Badge? Certainly you are well aware that it is not a "Boy Scout" training program. Its lessons you must recall are not based on the the Boy Scout Handbook, and that it is for any Scouter in ANY posoition. Why would a Scoutmaster be any better trainer for Wood Badge than a Den Leader who knew and understood the skills of the course? I wonder if any scouter reading this thread has ever been in a cub training course that wasn't lead by cub leaders, or a Boy Scout leader course that wasn't staffed by Boy Scout Leaders. Oh there may be the occasional situation of a DE stepping in if a volunteer isn't available but that is pretty seldom. I really think your concern takes place so rarely that it is not really worth wide concern. And lets not think that only scoutmasters have troop scouting skills, there are far more active assistant scoutmasters in the program then there are scoutmasters, and they have nearly all the same responsibilities as the SM. BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

The difference is its not a rule the unit made up it is the procedure the BSA recommends, and it's effective. Let me ask Hunt, how often have you had to punish a scout?

I never said I don't counsel scouts. I said that the the Oath and Law are the rules we use to teach the expected behavior. I also pointed out that the unit leader's job is to deliver the program. The BSA says that if a scout's behavior is a danger to himself or others OR if his behavior interferes with the delivery of the program...send him home. So a scout who uses inapropriate language, regardless of what letter it begins with, will find an adult leader by his side for a discussion of the intricacies of the english language. If he chooses to continue to interrupt the program with his vulgarity guess where he is headed...back home. That being said I have only sent three scouts home in almost 30 years (two went at the same time). Why? Because at the first troop meeting a Scout attends after he joins we go over the meaning of the Oath and Law and we make sure they are clearly understood, and we explain what the consequences are when you choose to not behave like a scout. The Scout Handbook is the Scout's rule book of scouting. Why not just teach him what is in the handbook. Its funny that leaders who don't want to follow the rules of the BSA, and criticize those who do as being "bookish" want to write their own rules so that the have something to tell them exactly what to do in circumstances already covered in the BSA resources that they don't want to use.

Can't you make it a choice without having to make it a rule? My son chooses to wear a neckerchief, no one had to make a rule, they just made an appealing neckerchief. "Also, I don't understand the difference between teaching the boys what is expected (i.e., on how foul language isn't "clean") and writing it down on a piece of paper." The point is it's already written down in the Boy Scout Handbook page 53. Why not just use the Boy Scout handbook?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Why would a scout unit need or want an EIN. Here is the litmus test for needing an EIN. Unless you can answer Yes to one of these you do not need this. Do you have employees? NO Do you operate your business as a corporation or a partnership? NO Do you file any of these tax returns: Employment, Excise, or Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms? NO Do you withhold taxes on income, other than wages, paid to a non-resident alien? NO Do you have a Keogh plan? NO Are you involved with any of the following types of organizations? Trusts, except certain grantor-owned revocable trusts, IRAs, Exempt Organization Business Income Tax Returns, NO Estates NO Real estate mortgage investment conduits NO Non-profit organizations NO (you are not a non-profit organization, your unit is a club within the Charter organization. The BSA is a non profit organization, The Council is a non profit organiztion but your unit is not. Farmers' cooperatives NO Plan administrators NO If on your application you misrepresented your unit as a non-profit organization you could place yourself in a real legal mess.

our troop we have a "troop guidebook and reference" which acts as both by-laws and a parents handbook. It contains a code of conduct, explaining what behavior is acceptable, and what isn't. For example it says that foul language is not acceptable, and that if you use it you will be warned by a leader to stop. A Scout is Clean. When a boy joins in order to complete his Scout Badge requirements he must understand the meaning of each point of the Law. How do you instruct hinm about the meaning of Clean? Do the scouts after their first meeting not understand the behavior expected of each scout? "It also says that if you have/use any illegal substances (drugs, alchohol, fireworks) your parents will be required to pick you up immediatly. This is to prevent any confusion over what behavior is acceptable, and what isn't. "The Guidebook also discusses our policies on scout accounts (many given to individual scouts after fundraisers) including how to retrieve money from them, as this info is not contained in any BSA publication." You don't really believe that there is a single boy in Scouting who thinks that drinking alcohol or fireworks are acceptable or will be overlooked? Does the troop not teach fire safety early on to every scout? A scout using fireworks is a danger to himself and others...send him home. That's because you created it. The BSA cannot be expected to have rules for something you created that isn't a needed part of the program. The BSA does not recommend you set up those accounts. See page 162 of the Scoutmaster Handbook. "So, I see troop by-laws as being a way of clarifing BSA policies in a way that ALL troop members will have them avalible to them. How else is a scout supposed to know that if they drink they will be sent home? You can't expect every scout to take Scoutmaster fundimentals, can you? The BSA program teaches leaders to send the scout home, or seek medical attention is the scout requires it. A boy drinking alcohol is not being Trustworthy, Obedient, or Clean...send him home. If you follow the program the scout takes part in a drug and alcohol information program within the firt 12 months. Teach values and skills not rules.

"Now, lets get back to reality. A Scout gets mad at someone and purposely slashes a troop tent." A boy who slashes a tent is a danger to himself and others. His actions are not Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Cheerful, Thrifty or Brave. This is a Scout outing and he is not living up to his obligations...the BSA says send him home. Let the committee meet with the parents. Your job is not to punish other people's children it is to deliver a Scouting program to Scouts. Once boys understand you are committed to providing a Scouting program to Scouts, and that only those who act as Scouts will get that program, they will choose to follow the Oath and Law or They will choose to leave. But the choice to follow the program is left to each of us, Scout and Scouter alike.

Here is my experience with GameBoys and other personal electronics. We teach Scouts how and what to pack. We limit Scouts for health and safety reasons to a pack that weighs no more than 25% of their body weight. If a scout chooses to carry some of that weight as a GameBoy instead of say... matches, then let's hope he knows how to start a fire with a Game Boy. If we get caught in a heavy rain and his personal electronics do not like getting wet then he better hope he has water tight pockets because he chose to bring expensive electronics to a hostile environmemnt. If he wants to listen to music when he goes to bed thats fine as long as no one else can here it, what's the harm? Any camper who leaves personal equipment sitting anywhere other than in his tent or in his pocket and loses it made a bad camping decision. Items rarely get stolen, more often thay are simply left out for others to borrow...sometimes for a very long time. Don't make rules..teach good skills. Let the scouts learn from their decisions.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Prairie Scouter, I am not the topic of the thread, do not try to make me the topic. I have not made a personal attack at you and I expect the same in return. A third of your post is simply your opinion of me and frankly I do not see what that has to do with this or any other topic on scouting. Stick to the topic please. Would you say that a driver who never learns the traffic laws, doesn't know the contents of Rules of the Road, and never takes a driving class would be as good a driver as one who does? Do you think a driver who makes his own rules as he goes along is a good driver? Because that is what we are discussing here. What you need to know to drive the car is in the Rules of the Road and taught in Drivers ed. All the driver has to do is learn them and practice them. They are not asked or expected to change the rules. Unless you intend to do every activity in the G2SS you have no need to know every rule. You just need to know the rules for the activity you are doing. There are only 4 areas of scouting that are controlled by BSA policies. And almost all come down to the same thing...do what it tells you in the scout handbook. You raise a good point. If you get into someone else's car "you adjust" to how it steers, you don't go tinkering with someone els's car without permission. When you become a scout leader "you" adjust to the scouting program. As far as the number of forms you have to do. If you are the Scoutmaster or assistant and you are following the program, then you have ZERO forms to fill out and about four that you have to sign. Out of curiosity Priarie Scouter, how many forms do you fill out? (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Sure they may start out that way but as they spend some time together they will have the opportunity to find other activities that interest them. I think for patrol activities to accomplish their purpose the activity as to come from the patrol itself. You might think that they will choose bowling, skating, and movies but you need ask them, they might surprise you.

"When applying all of the known rules, regulations, procedures, policies, methods, and mission statement to what a Troop is asked to do, I dont have energy enough to do anything else." A good carpenter doesn't use every tool they own on every task they do. They just use the ones they need for that task. The skill is to know what the tools are, and how to use each one corrrectly.

The closer you follow the program the less problems you will have. If a scouts behavior interferes with the deliver of the program you are instructed to send them home. If their behavior is serious or repetative then the parents need to meet with the committee to determine a plan of action for the scout, up to and including removal from the unit. But that is the committee responsibility not the Den Leader's. The committee may require that a parent be present at all times, or perhaps the problem is the leaders ability to handle challenged scouts. The point is the problem needs to be brought to the committees attention so that the den program can continue to serve the boys. BW

Problems on this forum stemming from percieved "grey areas" are actually caused by leaders not knowing or understanding the program, its policies and procedures. For instance. A scout drinking alcohol is a danger to himself and others. The BSA says he goes home. The scout and his parents meet with the troop committee to determine his future in the unit. (Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training) Uniform regulations say that the unit or its leaders do not have the authority to alter the BSA uniform. How, and if, a scout wears his uniform will depend on the skill of the leader to implement this "Method" the same as any other method of scouting. (Uniform Insignia Guide, Scoutmaster Leader Specific training) Personal accounts are an artificial product manufactured by units and not by the BSA. Do not expect the BSA to have policies for something that is not a part of the program. The BSA does support a finance plan in which the per person cost of scouting is determined in advance and the funds raised go to offset those established costs. That way a scout can earn his own way without the scout or the parents seeing it as their money. (the Scoutmaster Handbook) So you see the grey areas are not in the program so much as in an individual's knowledge of the program. The vast majority of situations on this board happen from either not knowing, or not following, a program that is well documented and provides ample training and assitance in delivering. Don't get me wrong I don't think a scout leader is going to know everything they need to be a quality leader in a month. But it certainly is learnable in 6 months. And you have a lifetime to practice and improve. But my goodness, look at the number of leaders with years in the program who do not even know the basics, never took training, never even read the Scout Handbook except for the requirements pages. Forget about grey areas there are leaders on this forum and others living in black holes of scouting and refuse to change regardless of what evidence they are shown that they are in conflict with the BSA program. The only thing they have in common with scouters like Eamonn, FScouter, OGE, and others who understand the program is that they almost dress the same.

Wonderful!

Who said anything about "just adherence to the text"? What I said was be a leader who understands and follows the program. When you take the training and follow the lessons you learn how to show the need for the skill in order to create the desire for the skill. That is a part of the program. Too many posters are overly concerned about being "in charge", they are ignoring the fact that theirjob is play a game with a purpose. I have never been around so many scouters before joining this forum, that talk more of uniforms, membership, snipe hunts, what the rules should be, etc, than they do about actually scouting. The few rules that there are are very easy to fine and very specific. The program is about what boys can do not about what they can't do, shouldn't do, or what you won't let them do. Forget the myriad of fabricated rules created by adults to make their lives easier rather than to make a Scout's life better. Loving this scouting stuff is fine...knowing and following it is better. BW (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Something to consider. This approach can be frustrating for the scout if it is percieved as a challenge or a scold. Try to make it more of a mentoring approach. "Thats a good question, how would you like to see it handled?" Let the scout reply the ask, what made you choose that solution?" Let the scout reply, "Can you see any reason why you shouldn't try that?" Let the scout reply. "Then why not try it, see how it works, let me know I'd be interested in how it turned out". "I think you make some very good decisions." BW

Don't sell what you have done short one-hour. You have stuck to learning and following the program and the results continue to improve as you become more adept at the process. Nothing in the world wrong with 100% retention. That felloing you got watching the TGs work with the new scouts is called "Scouting". You are doing just fine. One real great thing to get in the habit of doing now is don't answer questions. Instead show genuine interest in what the scouts own answer to his question is. Support his ability to make his own decisions. As long as he is not going to get hurt or hurt others then let them come to their own decision even if you doubt it will work. Learn to say "I think you ought to try it and see what happens, let me know how it works." Your trust in their ability to make their own decision will give them the confidence to make more decsions. Keep doin what you're doin!

An Asst. Committee Chair??? Just a suggestion Rixkidz, if your CC can't do the job don't get them an assistant, go get a different committee chair that can do the job. Part of the solution you seek is to follow the program better. As the CR you can also be the CC but that is the ONLY position you can dual register in unless you are in an at risk neighborhood and have the permission of the SE.

Rube Goldberg comes to mind. A man who created complicated multii-function machines to do what was actually a very simple task. Unit rules and bylaws, methods grabbed out of thin air, personal dictatorships in partial scout uniforms, Can't manage a real program? No problem complain about the uniform or the membership rules and hide in the smoke. Scouting Ain't That Tough! Take the basic training, read the Boy Scout Handbook. Deliver the promises made in the first few pages. Do this and you would have boys beating down your door to join. Even without the overnighter you should be aware that the advancement program has requirements spelled out in the handbook. Who ever gave you the notion that you could change them? When you really don't know what to do, do what the handbook tells the scout and you cannot go wrong. There are two rules you need for a troop. 1. Adults will follow the program, policies, and procedures of the BSA. 2. Scouts will behave according the Oath and Law of the BSA program. Anything else belongs in a Rube Goldberg museum.

The only unit position a CR can dual in is as the CC, unless the unit is determined to be in an at risk neighborhood and has the permission of the Scout Executive.