Bob White

"If you add 2+2 it will always equal 4. If God is Perfect then there is no free will. If there is free will then there is no perfect God." Sorry but that is a huge leap in logic. Where is the connection between perfection and free will? The biggest problem you have is in proving that mankind does not have freewill. Then the even bigger problewm is proving that giving mankind freewill was not a part of a perfect God's plan. Good luck proving either of those.

Sorry but since the adult patrol method does not exist I cannot tell you what it compares to. Can you explain that method along with what you recall of the "adult procedure"? Also, I am curious when you took Wood Badge. There is little if any mention of the Patrol Method in the current Wood Badge training, and certainly no frequent referral to it since Wood Badge is not specifically a "boy scout leader" course any longer. Since you are very new as a scoutmaster how long had you been out of youth scouting before you took the helm this January? BW

Requiring the uniform has nothing to do with the program. Making artificial rules to replace leadership skills is not leadership. The neckerchief is optional. If the youth PLC decides not to wear one then that's OK. But certainly it is not something an adult (or adults) should be deciding for the boys. (This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

But in your original post you attribute that behavior to his homesickness. You wanted advice on how to proceed. An adult leader who understands the needs and characteristics of boys needs to talk with this scout in a positive counseling way and find out which of his basic needs are not being met and keeping him from moving forward in his growth. Then that leader needs to see how the methods of scouting can be used to help support and develop the scout. Do you have such a person available? "and there is only so much an adult can do." True, but maybe they haven't done it yet. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

No council has the authority to change the BSA program. You need to be following the nations resources. They are written to coordinate with the BSA handbook. I think a number of us would be interested in a more specific explanation of what each of those terms mean. They are not found anywhere in the actual BSA program, and that is a part of the problem you are having. How can we help you with a program that no one else knows? If you followed the BSA program we would have common ground to work with. It's quite possible that as a new leader you have confused some terminologies. There is in the BSA program positions called assistant scoutmasters for New Scout Patrols and assistant scoutmasters for Venture Patrols. There are also 8 scout methods one is called the Adult Association Method and another the Patrol Method. Is it possible you have confused these terms? BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Requiring the uniform is not what the "uniform method" is about, nor is it required by BSA policy. The uniform is one method used to achieve the character and citizenship Aims. Changing the uniform is a violation of the BSA policies "our Pack and Troop require the uniform "from the waist up", that is, we don't require the uniform pants" , and diminishes the growth that can be accomplished through the uniform method. Getting the scouts and scouters into camplete uniform is a matter of leadership ability. If you only expect a partial uniform, then you will get a partial uniform. If you do not recognize and reward improvement in the uniform wear, as it happens, then changes will level-off or backslide. If you do not set the example, then the scouts will not follow. If you complain about the cost, the color, the fit, the style, then do not expect others to wear it. How do you get scouts to do anything? Teach, test, review, reward. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

homesickness has other causes besides the need for better food or sleeping arrangments. I agree, and I pointed that out in the post. If he does not feel safe, and if he does not feel welcomed in the community of the group then he will not be able to move beyond those deficiences and will instictually work to get the deficiences corrected. He will natuirally work to go home. Helping him is what servant leadership in scouting is about. If every scout had the ability to be self sufficient from the start there would be no need for adults. If adults are not there to understand individuals scout's and how they can help them to develop in a positive way then what are they they for?

Two things, tell dad you do not have time for adults who cannot play nice with others. he either does an anout face with his attitude and behavior and assists you with the thigs you ask of him in the way you need it done, or he is out. Second. If you want the scouting program to work you need to use the scouting program. Your Aren't! ASM Patrol Advisor? Adult Patrol Method? Adult Procedure? I have no idea what those are but they are not the scouting program. Take your assistants and attendt training as a team. It will help you avoid situations that could lead to this.

The parent is welcome to their opinion but the bottom line is it doesn't count for a thing. What camping is accepted is the decision of the MB counselor and no one else. the parent has no say so or authotity in the matter. Just so that you know, the requirement specifically says "Sleep each night under the sky or in a tent you have pitched (long-term camp excluded). So no matter what mom or dad thinks, nights spent in a cabin or camper do not count. BW

Are you familiar with Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs"? It is a great tool to understand what makes some scouts home sick and some thrive at cammp. It also is a good tool to evaluate the needs of a scout, which an adult leader has to help fulfill in order for the scout to grow and develop. Maslow's pyramid of needs from lowest level to peak go in this order. 1 = Physiological 2 = Safety 3 = Belongingness and Love 4 = Esteem 5 = Self-Actualization Basically Maslow's theory is that a person cannot move up to the next level until the lower level needs are sufficiently met. For instance a person will not be concererned about safety if he is hungry thirsty and without shelter. But once his pysiological needs are met the individual looks for ways to secure those resources and protect himself. Once he feels healthy and safe the individual will seek social acceptance and belonging. Home sickeness stemms from one or more of three basic levels of human needs not being met. If the scout is not eating or sleeping well he cannot even think about fitting into a social structure. he instincts are to seek to fill these psyiological deficiencies. Where do his instincts tell him that these basic needs can be filled? At home of course. If he is being picked on by peers and criticized by leaders how can he feel safe? His natural instaincts tell him to fix this deficiciency. Where does he feel safe? At home. If he is not fitting in socially how can he move to the next level of seeking esteem in his community? So he will want to go where he is accepted as a part of a group...back with his family. Observant Scout leaders understand that knowing and understanding the characteristics of the group they lead is an important skill. They understand why home sickness happens and they look for signs in the scouts of need deficiencies. Is the food healthy and enjoyable to the scout, does he have a comfortable enough sleeping arrangement, is he relatively safe from the environment, Is he participating in the group, is he getting personal positive recognition. A scout who has these things will not get homesick because there is nothing missing in his personal needs. Seeing that the elements needed for the scout to feel these needs is a responsibility of the adult leader. Once a person reaches self-actualzation he will be able to recognize deficiencies and fill them himself. But first he must be brought to that point. Just something I learned a while back at scout leader training.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Is the parent the camping merit badge counselor?

Hunt, wouldn't it be better if they just said "we follow the program, policies, and procedures of the BSA" so that the parents would know what to expect and where to find information if they though something wasn't kosher?. So what if they wrote done all the things they did wrong, how would a parent know that was not how things were supposed to be done?

The issue of 'belief' is separate from the issue of attending a church. It is very possible to believe in God and not attend a religious service. While I would agree that making a committment to a religious community is a wonderful way to expand your understanding and deepen your commitment to your faith, it is not a requirement of the BSA, it is however a behavior that meshes nicely with the program Aims and Mission. As others have pointed out, if the scout is unable to meet this requirement then there are others to choose from. I would recommend to the parents to seek guidance from a minister in their community. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

I never said the young man was wrong. If he was right (that he was an atheist as he claimed) then the board was wrong to grant the advancement at that time. If the scout was wrong , by that I mean he was not sincere in his atheism but only trying to challenge the board, then the board was again wrong to grant the advancement at that time. Do not misunderstand, I never said the boy was wrong, I said the boy did not meet the requirements as determined by the BSA.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

The problem is two-fold Torveaux. First B.S.A. is obviously the initials of the Boy Scouts of America. BSA actually means something and it is used by the Boy Scouts of America. "Class____ Uniform" is not used by the BSA and never has been. Second, once you allow "Class A" you have to allow for Class B, Class C etc. And there is where the foolishness starts. Ask 12 scouters what specifically makes for a "Class B" uniform and you will get 12 answers. Since the BSA does not define a Class B it becomes whatever the scout leader says it is, and thats just plain wrong. Class B is a military term, what it describes in the military uniform is not what the BSA calls the activity uniform. They don't mean the same thing so why use the term?

What did your religious leader suggest?

I have not seen where anyone has said not to share BSA policies, what has been stressed is that there is no need manufacture additional ones. Rarely are these manufactured rules not in conflict with the BSA rules already in existance. Likewise no one has suggested that you not share information such as meeting nights and times etc. Those are not rules or by-laws its simply information. What is being stressed is that the BSA come pre-packeaged with all the rules you need to deliver a safe and effective program, use those rather than add to them. BW

No, the CC does not have that authority. Not only can the CC not stop the advancement but he or she has no authority on whether a not a boy crosses over. Did the den leader turn in the advancment report with the scouts name on it for the AoL? Did she keep a copy? Does he have his signed Handbook? Can you get the CC to say the same thing to you so that it is not second hand information? Contact the local district executive and ask to meet with him or her and with the district advancement chairman. Explain the situation, present whatever paperwork you have. While this won't be fun it should not be difficult. The longer you wait the tougher it will be to fix.

There are not 3 goals in scouting (and never have been) if that is what the premise for your argument is FB then you have already run aground. There is one goal. To learn to make ethical decisions based on the values of the Boy Scout Oath and Law. Both of which the scout rejected by asserting he was an atheist. The feelings or beliefs of any religion are irrelevant since the BSA does not require the scout to be in any specific religion. Since it is not the parents who are candidates for the award their beliefs are irrelevant. The fact remains that the board was hoodwinked by this boy. "The young man directed his statement towards me because I think he thought I was the easy "mark"." that alone tells you volumes about his character doesn't it? If not, then consider this statement also from FB "I found it hard to forgive the young man because he had used the situation as a kind of a twisted joke." Is that the character of a Scout? Is it trustworthy, friendly, courteous, kind, brave, reverent? Membership requires an acceptance of God. This boy rejected that. That disqualified him from membership. Without an acceptance of God he could not meet the advancement requirements for any rank let alone the highest one. If he truly was an atheist then his decision to announce it, though ethical, disqualified him as a candidate under the regulations of the BSA. If he was yanking your chain, as it appears, then his actions were unethical and he did not meet the requirements for earning the rank at that time. The board in its effort to think beyond the requirements, changed them, and made a decision that while sincere was inappropriate according to the stated responsibilities of the bor and regulations of the BSA. Patiently and thoughtful submitted, BW

Here are the requirements for the Astronomy Academic belt loop and pin. You should be able to compolete some of the requirements, and give them information toward others. Depending on the size of the group you may find 45 minutes to be beyond their attention span. http://www.geocities.com/cybercubber/aands-astronomy.html

Besides the fact that his error agrees with yours, what other than his job title (which by the way, gives him no authority over what is right or wrong in uniforming) what makes him right and the BSA executive committee wrong?

I would be willing to bet that every parent who sent their scout to the game had full knowledge that there are cheerleaders present, and how they dress. Unlike the committee members, that Mr. Z knew were coming, who had no idea that a playboy magazine would be openly on display for them. Also the SE was not responsible for the presense of the cheerleaders or for their costumes, mr. Z on the other hand had full control and responsibility for the items in his home. Sorry, but the ASM won the "stupid" contest easily. BW

Mr. Z is no longer an ASM. Not only are his morals in question but by leaving a Playboy in his bathroom when he knew he was having company over, he showed that he is not smart enough to be a Scout leader.

Just one uniform shirt for the entire crew? That will be cozy. Consider the meaning of the word "uniform", unless all your other crew members decide to wear the same thing you aren't really in uniform are you? Remember that the Crew has two uniform options not the individual member. The Crew can choose to wear the official Venturing uniform or the Crew can create their own. BW

Allow me to act out the same scenario as I would based on the the values of scouting. New Parent: Tell me, Mr. Scoutmaster, does this Troop have a rule against foul language? SM: Well, we don't have a separate troop rule about that, but the scouts learn early on that foul language is contrary to the Scout Law. NP: So what do you do if a scout uses foul language? SM: First I would expect one of the junior leaders to remind him of his promise to be clean and that swearing or vulgarity is a poor choice for a Boy Scout to make. NP: What if he keeps on doing it? SM: His junior leader will inform an adult, and we will have a counseling session with the scout to find out what the problem is, and to make sure he understands a more scout-like way to deal with the problem. NP: So there's no consequence other than this counseling, even if he won't stop? SM: If your asking if we wash his mouth or with soap or make him clean latrines, no. Our concern is his growth and his ability to make the fright decisions regarding his actions. If however your scouts behavior gets to the point where it interferes with the program we call you and have you take him home, as we explained at our parents orientation. NP: So that's your troop rule? SM: No, thats is the instructions we are given by the Boy Scouts of America. But keep in mind that a boy who lives by the values already written in his Scout Handbook will not have to worry about the consequences of his actions. NP: Okay....... As I said the only rule you need is that scouts are expected to obey the Oath and Law, and Scouters will follow the program, policies, and procedures of the BSA. BW