Bob White

The National Jamboree committee is operating a special, limited participation event. No one has to attend. It is not only a uniques activity and opportunity for the boys it is a showcase event for the BSA. If you want to particpate you come prepared as instructed. The councils are responsible for seeing to it that the participants are properly uniformed. The staff agreed to the condition when they applied and paid their fees. Haven't you ever been invited to a party where you were told how to dress? Jamboree is no different.

I do not believe the females are required to have separate sites from the male crew onlt separate facilities (tents, rooms, cabins etc.), but they can camp in the same site.

You only need to read the first post in the thread to get the answer to every question you asked John. No one has suggested that rules were not needed. What we have said is that the rules that are needed already exist and are available in the resources of the BSA. You need only use the rules and tools already in the program. There is not need to manufacture more. BW

My son is 17 he is nearly 6 ft tall and is on his third pair of BSA uniform pants in 6-1/2 years. So about $100 in pants. He has spend more than that on school pants each year and they didn't last as long. Why not just say wear the uniform? If the scout doesn't have it all yet why must you lower your expectations? Why not just encourage the scout to rise to them? The unit does not have the authority to alter the uniform except for the pieces specified by the BSA as "optional".

It is true they cannot "camp" together. Just as Cub Scouts are not to "camp" wityh troops either. They can be at the same event together doing different things and cammping in separate areas. The problem arises where an 18 year old is an adult as far as rules are concerned but the Venturing program sees them as youth until 21. that makes program interaction between the program a real problem. Venturers make good instructors for scout skills, and I see them as a good resource for staffing events. But is is important to keep separate activities and activity levels for the two groups and to have them camp apart. While I applaud your understanding that the Ventureres need to be making decisions, there is a reason why your role is called 'advisor'. You are well within your responsibilities to help guide them away from decisions that are not appropriate to their program.

I guess the bigger question is why have a boy join a crew if he is going to do the same thing the boys in the troop are doing? The whole point of different programs is to do different things. BW

AS a Scoutmaster our CO also gave us an annual budget. But then we bave a lot back to the CO as well. Given the choice I too would have bought tents first. We used our first popcorn sales to complete the scouts' uniforms. I think the CO should support complete uniforms just as they should support training for all adult leaders, and all other aspects of a strong scouting program. BW

The uniform is like Certs...it's two, two, two things in one! The Uniform is a Method, the Uniform is a trademark of scouting and as such is one of four areas of scouting controlled by BSA policies. If you read the first few pages of the Insignia Guide you might understand better the regulations that are transgressed when you change the uniform. If you are unwilling to read the manual there is little I or anyone else can do to help you to understand. We have already explained several times that there is a difference between a scout who does not wear a complete uniform and a leader who says that the uniform can be something other than what the BSA says it is. A few minutes of your time invested in reading a BSA resource would I hope clarify this point for you.

Yes, Charter Organizations may make rules that are more restrictive but not less restrictive than the BSA. That would include the CO making complete uniforms mandatory for all members. In my opinion that is a poor way to lead, or to implement the wearing of a scout uniform, but the CO has that authority. I would hope thay would also make obtaining a complete uniform possible for all families taking their individual resources into consideration. BW

I do not disagree that they are separate programs, however they have for quite a while shared the same awards. See page 143 of the Scoutmaster Handbook, pages 420-421 of the Boy Scout Handbook, and also the reference that AGarbers shared. AGarbers had made it clear that he is asking about Venture Patrols, and he was correct to use the resource that he had for both Varsity and Venture. For years the Varsity Team and the Venture Patrol shared the same award system. (not advancement, the Venture Patrol used the same rank advancement as the troop.) BW

Hunt is 95% correct or more. I would probably answer the question differently. Q. "Do I have to wear the pants?" A. If you were going to your school's prom would you only wear half a tuxedo? You should wear whatever uniform you have at the time as correctly as possible. I think you and the unit look very sharp when you are in full uniform. You are a good bunch of scouts, and good uniforming helps to show that to others." It's in teaching scouts how and why we wear a uniform that we begin to use the "Uniform Method". Like the other Methods of Scouting, the Uniform Method is something we teach and provide for the scouts. Like the other methods it is a tool for affecting one of the three Aims of Scouting. You don't deliver any of the other methods by "rules" so why would we do it with this one? (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Until very recently the Venture Patrol used the same extra awards used by a Varsity patrol or Varsity Team. You will find this information in the Scoutmaster Handbook, The Boy Scout Handbook, and in the manual referred to in AGarber's posts. (I believe some apologies are owed to AGarbers.) Recently the varsity program was removed from the troop program and made an independent unit. It is my understanding that in the last few months the Varsity awards formerly used by Venture Patrols Will only be made available now to the Varsity Teams and not Venture Patrols. I have no official document to share at this time but I will try to find one. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

"Hmm... How can there be a Uniform regulation if the uniform isn't required? What is there to violate?" If you read the opening pages of the Insignia Guide I believe you would find out. When in doubt read the resources of the BSA.

A parent saying they do not have the resources to get a complete uniform yet, and a leader saying that you do not need to wear the pants to be in a complete uniform are two separate issues. Following only the rules you find convenient sets a very poor example of ethical decision making to the Scouts. BW

If you put it on the uniform it would go in the same location as any other temprary patch, on the right hand shirt pocket (not on the flap even though it is shaped like that). BW

"Isn't it actually contrary to a Method of Scouting, not a violation of a BSA policy since the BSA doesn't require a uniform? No, it's actually a violation of BSA Uniform regulations.

Wood Badge is two words.

www.woodbadge.org

There is no liability. Even the Youth protection specifically states that no adults are required for a patrol activity. The key is that the paln is known and approved by the SM and that the parents are aware this is a patrol activity under youth leadership and that no aduklt will be present. if parents choose not to let their Scout attend then that is their choice to make.

Good for you kittle, and good for your son. He wants to wear the uniform because he is proud of the group he belongs to. And good for you for continuing to move towrd a full uniform. Whats important isn't that he is in complete uniform this minute, what is important is that he isn't stopping at his belt. I have send you the rest on this message in a private message. BW.

Our responsibility is to promote the uniform, encourage the uniform, recognize and reward wearing the uniform, foster a sense of community by wearing the unifom, teach a lesson about grooming and self esteem, then you abdicate all those responsibilities when you change the uniform or lower your standards. An adult leader does more harm by altering the uniform than a scout does by not having the entire uniform. You teach that the only laws that count are the laws that are personally convenient. To rationalize doing the wrong thing because "But, yes, there are plenty of units out there who also don't require some parts of the uniform. So, yeah, we're breaking the rules." is a horrible trait for a "leader" to model to youth. 'I can do it wrong because they do it wrong' is an argument used by children and not by responsible adults. Doing things right is seldom the easist way. Neither skill, knowledge, or character is needed to do things wrong. It's a matter of making the ethical choice. The same trait we are striving to teach the scouts, and yet we cannot teach it to the "leaders".

Why does the Scout Handbook need to tell scouts not to add or subtract? it's not as if they are the ones doing it. Leaders are told in training, in the scoutmaster handbook and in the advancement policies handbook. if they are going to ignore all those warnings what good will putting into another book they don't read do? Cub leaders are told in Leader Specific Training, in the Cub Leader Handbook and in the advancement policies and procedures manual. Unless leaders follow the program it will not matter how often it is published.

Bryan, I think you are doing the right thing. Give the 14 older scouts an ASM of their own to help get them started. Make them into two patrols and allow each patrol to determine their own separate patrol activities. Remember with your permission and the riht plan these patrols can go on activities including overnight camping, on their own without adult leadership. This is where the greatest growth in a Scout's personal growth can take place. Keep the new scouts busy with their Tenderfoot, 2nd Class and 1st Class skills and their own activities and they will understand that the higher skill activities are waiting for them leater in their scouting. Now you just have the middle group called "Regular patrols", from what you described you should have two of those as well. These should be the middle age, middle skill level group. Find activities for them that will give them the opportunity to apply the skills they learned so far and begin introducing merit badge opportunities that they can choose to pursue individually. You have all the ingredients you need for a complete scouting program. 3 separate but interwoven programs with you as the ringmaster keeping everyone in motion. It's a great place to be! Happy Scouting! BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Predestination was never mentioned. The issue was God's perfection. God's perfection refers to His state. How do you prove that giving us free-will was not the intention of a perfect God? Even if He knew in advance what we would choose that does not mean he doesn't allow us to make the choice. It would still be free will. If in fact He knew everything that we would choose what would be the purpose of his creation of us. I believe He is all knowing, but that doesn't mean that He knows in advance. Couldn't God's omnipotence mean that He chooses to know what we do when we do it, without choosing to know in advance? Who can say for sure...besides evidently Dug.

I have made no mention of your abilities I talked only of the abilities that will be needed in the adult who helps this scout. You asked how to proceed. I assumed you meant how do you help this scout. But you sound as if that is not the solution you are after. What resolution then are you asking for directions on? It seems obvious that something is really troubling this youth and his relationship with the SM could be a big part of it. (This message has been edited by Bob White)