Bob White

Bad form to me would be supplementing the BSA scoutiung program with your personal variations and having it fail the boys. If a leader admittedly doesn't follow and support the BSA program methods, policies and procedures and the unit he or she serves is failing, to refuse to ackowledge that the problem is not the program and its methods but the inneffectiveness of the individual(s) "improvements" is bad form. While a couple posters would like to turn the topic to be about me, aor my righting style, the question is about understanding the methods. They would find it inpossible to find anything I have written, regardless of how they view my writing style, that shows ant misunderstanding or misuse of the scouting methods. If the methods are mot required to have a scouting program as Ed has said, then what is required?

Let's not obscure the original question. The question was not 'do you object to the methods', the question was 'who agrees or disagrees with Ed that the methods are not required?'. And if I understand the posts from OGE, Eamon, and some others...if the methods of scouting are what make a program a "scouting" program, how could you not understand and accept that the methods are required? If you do not use them then you are not scouting. BW

And if the BSA uniform policies were left to the individual leader to determine then Prairie Scouter would be coorect...but they are not. If he were to look in the Cub Scout Leader Book on page 12-11 he would see these words in the first paragraph..."The entire uniform should be worn or not at all. Cub Scouts from packs where complete uniforms are promoted, encouraged and rewarded will already be in a complete uniform when they arrive in the troop. BW

The answer is probably yes, but if I were you I would call the Philmont Trek headquarters and ask them. BW

16

Right on scout commish. I recently reminded the members of our jamboree committee of that and a few were insistant that once you wear it it is on forever and I pointed them to the same reference you offered.

I have visited the museum twice. Depending on if there is a special program that day, two to three hours will be plenty. (if the computer programs aren't working as on the day I took my son, 40 minutes may be too long. The Rockwell exhibit is awesome. BW

While I have always agreed that nowhere in the BSA resources will you find the words "the Methods of scouting are required" I do not see how they can be ignored or unused if you are to have any integrity as a Scout leader. The whole purpose of being a volunteer leader should be to deliver the best possible scouting program you can, and it is the Methods that make it a scouting program. Until you understand and incorporate the methods into the program you are serving as a leader, you are not scouting. Even if you where a complete uniform. What boggles my mind is not the new leader who has not learned these methods, or the fairly new leader who is still learning how they are used. What amazes me is the 'experienced leader', the one who is trained and trains others, who still rejects or debates in opposition to the use or purpose of not only the methods but other aspects of the BSA program as well. If Eamonn can write something with the understanding that some will not like it then I guess I can to. This forum could be a great tool to learn about delivering a quality scouting program. But that doesn't mean that anybody with a Scout uniform in the closet and a keyboard should consider themselves a teacher. If you lose half your new scouts every year, if you don't understand the how or why the methods work, if you can't keep the majority of your scouts after they turn 16, if your troop is 1/3 the size it was two years ago, if you have never finished the courses for basic leader training in your position, then you need to realize you are a student not a teacher. You need to be asking questions and considering some personal changes, not offering opinions and telling people "your way" of scouting. Lastly, this is the internet, in case no one ever told you, some people on the internet lie. There are posters on this forum who are not what they claim to be. You need to choose who you listen to. There are posters who say "this is what I do". What they fail to tell you is that thier program failed or is failing. There are posters here who claim to have experience that they do not have and they use that false background as evidence of knowledgethe. The best way to make sure that what you are hearing is accuate you need to put more trust in the official resources of the BSA than you put in the writings of ANY poster here. You need to know your job and how to do it according to the BSA program not according to anyone here. You need to learn the program you volunteered to lead. Nothing any one of us posts will replace knowing the BSA program. The person who tells you that the Methods do not work, or are hypocritical, or are not required, either never learned them or never used them correctly. Bob White Thump, thump, thump.

How much will he get from 30 minutes? more than he will get from 0. You and his dad need to compromise. Perhaps an arrangement can be made with his caoch to leave 10 or 15 minutes early. Scouting should be flexible to allow boys to have other experiences, is it so odd that we should ask others to try and be flexible so the boy can experience scouting as well? BW

"He most certainly is NOT dead! He's just gone home." In that case he will need to register with his current council. I am not sure we have a local service center near him.

Varsity Teams are used primarily by the LDS Church. It is a part of the Boy Scout program (as opposed to the Cub Scout or Venturing program which are separate.) It is a differnt kind of Boy Scout unit. It is not strictly Sports oriented but can be. They can also be high adventure oriented. Varsity Scouts follow the same advancement path as Boy Scouts with some additiona activity based awards available.

The Big Dog as it were is the BSA executive committee as explained in the BSA insignis guide. I am curious tortdog, what does the Varsity manuals say the uniforms are, certainly it is explained in detail just as in the other manuals. Kahina you are 100% right on your implementation of the Boy Scout Uniform, but you are incorrect about the knots on a Sea Scout leaders uniform. You are allowed a maximum of 6 knots(two rows of three knots each) on the dress uniforms only. in addition 5 medals can be worn along the top seam of the pocket immediately below the bottom row of knots, but should not duplicate the awards represented by the knots. (page 114 of the Sea Scout Manual) Wood Badge beads are not worn on the Sea Scout uniform according to the current manual. I did not know that. I wonder if that will change due to the new Wood Badge?

While all three sites are unofficial the first two are filled with errors and have not been updated in 5 years. The third site you refer to says: "Varsity Scouts use the same uniform as Boy Scouts with the following changes/additions: use of the orange shoulder loops use of the "Varsity" uniform strip above the "Boy Scouts of America" strip." I agree with that statement.

I have never heard of the non-uniform brown either. where diod you see that? All the BSA uniform resources I have seen on Varsity is identical to troop policies.

Congrats on working your ticket, I hope you enjoy following your vision. Bob White EC-196-W

You are free to wear what you like to suit your activity, but it will not be a Varsity Scouting Uniform. The "Activity Uniform" for Varsity as for troops is a scoutig T-shirt or polo, scout shorts or pants, scout belt, and scout socks. There are times when being out of uniform is perfectly fine and other times when being in uniform is more appropriate. BW

Sorry Susan, but I do not know of an records of that type kept by anyone, and I doubt you will find any. I know that national has no way of tracking such things and neither do the councils. So without a way to check with them it is anyone gues how many of the 1.33 million or so Eagles were related. It is a wonderful thing for your family regardless of how often it may have happen. Congratulations to all four generations. BW

I cannot believe that any person has this much trouble grasping this. Ed, it's like saying you do not need to wear a suit, if you do not have one yet, to enroll in this school or attend our classes. But if you want to represent your school at the special event coming up then you will need to wear a suit for it. If you do not want to go you do not have to. If anyone else can explain this more simply please hop in.

Just because someone was a scout (evem an Eagle Scout) does not make them a good person to be an adult leader and certainlly having a birthday doesn't make someone a good choice for a scout leader. Charter oganizations need to choose their leadership carefully. You will get the unit unit you deserve. My advice is to give the young man a minimum 6 month to one year hiatus. Let him learn about being an adult first, then let him apply for a leadership position, provide references and show skills that would be useful to the unit. BW

Name calling is not neeeded to have a discussion or to make a point. It's unfortunate you feel otherwise. You wrote My most recent firestorm that I had to put out was with the mother that ordered five pair of white socks/red top, straight out of the Jamboree catalog" and "The socks I'm referencing in the catalog" AND " The National Jamboree catalog uniform description lists as the official uniform "Boy Scout Socks (red top). (and yes it says the socks with "red tops" not red AND green tops) If you now want to refer to the website thats fine but that is not the reference you used in the discussion. And as I said if the scout has a complete uniform the vast majority of jamboree items will be given to him. The fact that the scout did not have a complete uniform to begin with is a family and unit problem. It is not as if the uniform was unknown or unavailable. Based on the references you gave, the information I replied with was accurate and given to you without the name calling you chose to use. You are not the one who should expect an apology. If suggesting that the unit should have helped the parent out in advance or that the parent should have known what the uniform is (either by someone in the unit teaching her, or at the very least looking in the handbook) bothers you, then that is a personal problem which I cannot resolve for you. Nor can the BSA be held responsible for either situation. Ed If the scout or his family cannot afford to even obtain a pre-owned uniform then how the heck can they afford the trip to jamboree? The BSA is not saying you cannot retain your membership. They are saying that to come to this event you need this specific clothing. No scout has to go to this Ed. 38,000 scouts choose to go and many more would like to but that's all the room there is. If they are willing to follow the rules for the event why should that concern or trouble you? (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Acco you make several incorrect statements in your last post. The BSA does not forbit a unit from making the uniform mandatory a fact which has been mentioned here several times. It is within the the COs authority. The socks are thin polyester Body Armor liners. They simply do not have white cuffs. "They are listed under "accessories" and not uniform. No they are not. They are listed under "Apparel". They are listed under apparel because they are not uniform pieces. What would you have preferred they be listed under? Stationary? Knives? First Aid? Camping? If you look at all the section titles APPAREL makes the most sense doesn't it? "The National Jamboree catalog uniform description lists as the official uniform "Boy Scout Socks (red top)." No it doesn't! In fact it doesn't even refer to the uniform socks that way. Page 20 of the jamboree catalog. They are listed as.. Crew 74% Sensura polyester/23% nylon/1% Lycra How about cutting others some slack. You have a parent in the unit you serve who doesn't know what the uniform consists of, national provides lots of pictures and explanations, who should be responsible for making sure a parent in a troop knows this information? A Scout who already owns a uniform needs to buy the hat, and the neckerchief. That's it! That is if his council doesn't provide those, and some do. He gets two activity patches once his fee is paid. His troop numbers will be given to him, his POR patches will be given to him, his patrol medallions will be given to him, his council strips will be given to him. He needs two uniforms because he will be in uniform nearly every day for almost two weeks. What part of needing more than one uniform is so hard to understand? What is all the whining about? Can't you see what a ridiculous complaint this is? He chose to go on this trip. No one made him do it. If mom doesn't need the socks for pete's sake send them back They cost less than $5. "in the future cut some of the great unwashed who are not as knowledgeable as you on the ways of Scouting some slack." It doesn't take a genius to look at page 4 of the jambo catalog and see in the column under really big lettering that says UNIFORMS, a tan shirt, green pants, green shorts and green socks.

I'm not sure how or from where lynda but you got ahold of a lot of bad information about temporary patches. BW

Hypocrytical? Where have they said one thing and done another? If leaders cannot grasp something as simple as what the uniform is and when to wear it, how do they hope to ever figure out the complex parts of scouting like fire building or map and compass? The socks are Sensura...body armor...sock LINERS. They help prevent blisters and wick moisture, they are not for outerwear. Perhaps the unit should consider taking time for parents with scouts going on special events to go over their equipment needs and explain what some of the lesser known items are?It would be a nice service and a conveience for the families you serve. Maybe if the scouts were made aware earlier that uniform socks were green, perhaps a question about the unusual white ones would have risen sooner? The uniform is pictured an awful lot of places for someone in scouting, even on the fringe of scouting, to not know what it looked like. All the Jamboree uniform consists of is a standard uniform. The new troop number goes in the same place as the old troop number. They wear a specific hat of an optional design just as a troop is allowed to do. There is a specific event kneckerchief, an optional design just as a troop is allowed to do. There is a unique activity patch just like from any council or district activity that is worn above the pocket rather than on it. The only really unique item to the uniform is the Region patch worn under the patrol medallion position. There is nothing special otherwise. If the parts are foreign to the parents it's because they haven't been made aware of what a complete uniform looks like. National puts in in all the books, who do you suppose should have taught them about it??? By the way there is nothing in the apparel section that a scout HAS to have. If she felt she HAD to buy the white socks did she also buy everything else in that section?

Reading these posts I can't help but think that some units are making this much harder than it needs to be. For the most part the scouts should be keeping the details of their own advancement either with their handbooks or the handbooks and the pocket record book. There is also the wall chart that the scouts and the scribe keep. When the comittee advancement person gets involved it is after a BOR or when a MB card is turned in. They fill out the advancement record for council or enter the info into the record keeping software and generate a council record (the latter is better). Attendance on campouts is done by the scribe and submitted to the advancemnt committee to record. This is one of the few jobs in scouting that really does take an hour a week, especially if you do not try to do it by yourself. What am I missing that makes the other posts sound like this is a difficult job?

Have him take youth protection and Scoutmster basic training courses. I would keep him away from the scouts until he completes them (no matter how long it took). I think trying to make a Boy Scout into an adult leader overnight is a bad idea.