Bob White

Each Scout in this Ship pays $100 at joining this pays for the first year of membership, their Sea Scout Handbook, their dress white uniform, a ship's cap, t-shirt, and hooded sweatshirt. After that scouts pay for their own food during activities and for each years re-registration fee of $10. This was determined by Scouts first deciding what their program needs were then determining what the cost of their planned program would be, and then making a plan using an intial dues plus fundraising to meet the needs of the budget. The Quarterdeck does not currently require other dues to meet their budget needs, and while the next quarterdeck may have other program plans that require a different budget plan at thei point this has worked just fine. So what a unit does for dues should not be based on a national consensus. It should be based on teaching scouts to plan a program, determine the budget needed and than determine a financial plan to meet the budget. Asking what other charge as dues to determine what you should charge is like asking your neighbors what their family budget is to determine your own families budget. What your family budget is should be based on your own goals and needs not on an average of what others do. Teach scouts how to plan, not how to indiscriminately charge dues in hope that it will pay for the things that come up. You wonder why some Eagle candidates don't understand how to plan and lead a project. It would seem a lot of unit leaders aren't teaching them how to plan. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Actually it is up to the chartering organization you said chartered the unit as to whether or not the unit recharters, not you. The charter was never between you and the BSA but with the BSA and the chartering organization . They are free to carry on with the Scouting program without you. Please remember that all the unit funds and equipment are the property of the Chartering Organization and not yours to take with you. I hope you enjoy your new activity.

The policies and regulations for how units can raise money and how the name and images of the BSA can be used are not determined by how much "fun and fellowship" is had by the participants. It is doubtful that a unit sponsored event such as a hayrack ride or haunted house would be approved by a Council Scout Executive. A unit has no way of insuring such an event. It would have to be done by another organization and it is doubtful that a council would allow the proceeds to be used for just one unit within the council. It would be surprising to find that such an event was approved by a council for a unit fundraiser. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Liz writes "Of course, I can always go rent the van and just tell them it's for personal/family use, but that would not be honest." From the BSA Guide to Safe Scouting "If the vehicle to be used is designed to carry more than 15 persons, including the driver (more than 10 persons, including the driver, in California), the driver must have a commercial driver's license (CDL)." Rather than waste the energy to look for ways to do things wrong...why not just follow the rules of the program amd the local laws and do things right?

If a scout raises a net profit of over $400 through popcorn sales then you waive $160 in annual dues???? What kind of a deal is that for a family? It would seem that no parent in that troop owns a calculator. What most units I know do is to first plan a program, then determine what that program would cost (a budget), and then determine how the unit will meet the budget. It could be through dues, popcorn sales, or other fundraising projects, or a combination of those elements. But if the unit determines it needs $160 per scout to do the things they want to do then why make a Scout sell $1300 in popcorn when they would only need to sell $480 to meet the budget needs?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

How motorcyclists think or don't think is not the issue. What matters in this case are the fundraising rules for scout units set by the BSA. Riding a motorcycle is an activity not a product, and not a service. An organized motorcycle ride is an "event". And if the event is being hosted by a Scout unit then it is in violation of the BSA fundraising policies since units must offer a product or service. Riding something is not a product. Riding your own something is not a service. A scout unit cannot hold a fundraising "event" since they cannot p[rovide insurance for those in participation or in attendance. An outside organization cannot hold a fundraiser for a scout unit without the approval of the local scout office. Without that approval they cannot mention scouting, the scout unit, or use scouting terms or images, for the promotion of the event or during the event. You need to complete the Unit Money Earning Application and it must be approved by the local council or you cannot connect scouting to the "event" in any way. Those are the rules. Rather than work so hard to rationalize something that is not allowed why noty just do one of the activities that is allowed? Just offer an actual product or service that meets the BSA regulations.

You do not seem to understand that uynless the council approves it you cannot use Scouting in any aspect of the event. the Legion cannot even say that the event is to send a Cub Scout to camp. They can say that the funds will be used to ward the Legion's youth program, but they cannot use the names or images of any part of the BSA programs in the planning promotion, event, or follow up. You must have the permission of the council on a Unit Moneey eraning application in order to relate this to scouting at ANY level or in ANY way. I really doubt that this "event" will qualify. There is no product or service being offered.

OOPS "Eagle1977 you have totally miusunderstood my pots." Should have been "Eagle1977 you have totally misunderstood my posts" Sorry about that (This message has been edited by Bob White)

You have misunderstood what I posted Cheffy. I will try to be more clear. Legal retribution is not a leadership skill. Sicking an attorney on a vendor does not teach leadership nor does it teach the scout how to problem solve. It only teaches him to turn to others to solve problems for him, be it a lawyer sueing a vendor or a dad searching for answers for him on an internet forum. The point of my post is that the purpose of the project is for the scout to apply leadership skills so that he can understand them better and so that he can lead a project to completion. It is his project and not yours. Your proposed solution of hiring a lawyer over this situation shows that you do not understand leadership skills or problem solving, or the fact that this is not YOUR project. Your son needs a project coach/mentor who has a better grasp of project planning and leadership skills then you are demonstrating in either your first or last post. "I'm sure if this was a non-Eagle situation and it was your business or job the answers would be different." This last quote of yours proves my point. As a business owner who deals with hundreds of vendors I can assure you that people drop the ball all the time. If I set my lawyer upon every vendor who screwed up I would have no time to serve my clients. My job is not legal retribution. My job is to serve the client. That means when other people make mistakes it is my job and my company's job to solve the problem and take care of the client, not to sue everyone who makes a mistake. The Eagle candidate's job is to resolve the problems that arise and get the job done, not to threaten people with legal action. You are teaching your son poor planning and leadership skills, which as a parent is your right, if that is what you wish to do. But you are not helping him to successfully lead a project or to understand and apply the skills of scouting.

Before you contact any bike club first submit your Unit Money Earning application with details of your proposed event to the council. Since this would be a scout sponsored event the BSA would be responsible for providing insurance for the event, and since there is neither a product or service offered do not be surprised if they reject the proposal. Keep in mind that does not mean that the event cannot take place, it means that you cannot connect Scouting (or the scout unit) to the event in anyway.

Eagle1977 you have totally miusunderstood my pots. At no time did I say that wearing the tail over over the shoulder was wrong. What I posted was that you can put the tail whever you want because there are no traditions or regultaions regarding the placement of the tail. One does not have had to climb the Tooth or any other object at Philmont to place the tail over the shoulder. That is not a Scouting tradition it is an urban legend that has been passed down throughout the years by scouters sharing incorrect information. It is no different from other urban legends in scouting such as ...you have to be in uniform on a trip for insurance to be in effect, you have to complete a partial merit badge within a year, and fixed blade knives are prohibited by the BSA. These are all examples of misinformation that have been repeated for years that some scouters even today think are correct. Saying the wrong thing repeatedly does not make it right nor does ot make it a tradition in the program. It is just something that a lopt of people are wrong about. Wear the tail on the bull whever you want it does not signify ANYTHING.

What would be the product or service you would be offering?

No fight was inplied nor was it omplied that any direspect was shown to the BSa or anyone or anything else. The fact is that there is nor BSA "tradition" of the tail of the bull going over the shoulder if you climbed the Tooth of Time or any other peak at Philmont. It simply is not true and it was never a uniform rule or guideline in the BSA. The bull goes over the pocket on the left side of the jacket, where you want to put the tail is up to you. Why you put it there is up to your choice as it ios not stipulated by the BSA in any way. It's simply about being accurate and not continuing to spread incorrect information.

One of the important skills for leadership that an Eagle project can help to develop is the ability to problem solve. Thesituation that your son has encountered is a perfect example of the kinds of things that people run into all the time when what they "want" or what they "conceptualize" is not readily available in the real world. helping the scout learn ways to approach these kninds of planning hurdles is what the Eagle project and the leadership training of the BSA is all about, and for dad to get on-line and ask for others to solve the scout's problem really does not teach the scout anything...does it? If I were coaching the scout I would walk him through the problem solving steps. One important step is to consider all options. One option for instance would be that if you cannot find a screen to fit the fire pit then consider building a fire pit that fits the screen you can find. It would seem to me that the cost savings of making the pit just a little smaller far outweigh the gain of having a slightly larger pit and a much higher cost for a custom made screen. Good leaders learn to prioritize the elements of a project. Is it more important to have a 48" fire pit or to have a firepit that meets the local codes and is cost effective? A 40" fire screen is readlily available at major home centers and easily found on-line. But do not focus on solving the problem for the scout, but rather on helping the scout learn to think through problems and find solutions. Remember the actual goal of the project is not to build a fire pit...but to build a leader.

The Trainer Development course/BSA 500 was considerably different from the previous course Train The Trainer. It also preceded the introduction of the "Teaching EDGE" (as opposed to the Learning EDGE) by several years. A shift from Trainer Development/BSA 500 to the EDGE training would certainly bring the program up to date with the lessons and methods used in Wood Badge and NYLT. Just as there is nothing wrong wioth the conmtecnt or the previous Wood Badge course there was nothing wrong with either TTT or BSA 500, it's just that EDGE is also very good and creates and cohesive thread that rums through other BSA training courses as well. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Seems if enough scouters do the wrong thing for a long enough period of time...before you know it...you got yourself a 'tradition'.

If your intention is to take legal action then you should be consulting lawyers and not scouters shouldn't you? If your intention is to deal with this as a scouting matter, and if this is taking place in the unit where you are the COR, you have a variety of actions you can take. including removing the boy from unit membership based on his repeated bad behavior.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

The correct location for the parent's pin is on civilian clothing. There is no correct location on the official uniform for it to be worn. The fact that your son earned the Eagle rank has nothing to do with your role as a Scouting volunteer. There are no uniform police. The BSA has always relied on the personal integrity of each volunteer to wear the uniform correctly. As a proud parent of an Eagle you may proudly display your parents pin on your civilian clothing correctly. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Who in the troop is giving them guidance? What program has been developed in the troop for them? What responsibilities do they have at troop meetings? Who is helping them to succeed at it. It would seem they are not following any program because they are not being led.

No one "fails" Wood Badge. Some Scouters choose not to complete the course, but it is a personal choice. There are no conditions for, or classification of "Failed" in Wood Badge.

Here is what the Insignia Guide says. " Philmont Bull, worn on the left side of the jacket or jac-shirt above the pocket" Anyone who has been to Philmont on either the Trek side or at the Training Center can wear the Philmont Bull. Put the tail wherever you want there is no official rule or tradition that covers it, only an urban legend.

It is the Scoutmaster who determines if the Advancement Method of scouting is a way to recognize a scouts growth and accomplishments or if it is just a badge. Not the Scout, not the parent. It is the Scoutmaster's responsibility to see that the Methods of Scouting are used correctly. But the Scoutmmaste cannot pick and choose what parts of the program he or she will use and what they will ignore or change, and then complain that they did not get the results that you should have gotten. The further you get away from the Scouting program the less Scouting results you will get.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

There was no single author of Wood Badge for the 21st Century. It was a collaboration of of a number of people both in and out of Scouting. I do not believe Birkby was involved. As for the handbook, he wrote the outdoor skills sections which make up the core of the handbook, some of the other materials were re-edited from previous handbooks. He did not write every word of the Handbook. Why did Birkby "mess" with the handbook? I would think the answer was rather obvious and logical. He was hired by the BSA to write a new handbook.

"Da BSA can keep its trademark on Scouting Magazine, perhaps, but not on the movement." The fact that the BSA has already recieved copyright and trademark protections from the ferderal government on over 70 words and images including "Scouting", and has had these protections for years, immediatley disproves your claim that they cannot do it. The Chicago Cubs have trademark protection on the teams name even though the word cubs has been around far longer than the team, and is still used corrrectly in many other situations. The trademark protection simply keeps other baseball teams from using the same name and images. The BSA's protection of Cub Scouts is no different. You can open a McDonalds Tire store, you just cannot open a McDonalds restaurant unless you are paying McDonalds for the rights to the name as a franchisee. The BSA has not gained sole use of the word "Scouts" only the sole use of it when referring to a youth organization. We are volunteers in the BSA not the owners of it. The product, its name and imaqges belong to the BSA coroporation not to the volunteers. They have a right, and an obligation, to protect their name and images from being used by others in a similar or competetive way. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

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