Bob White

I am curious what insurance company you spoke with Vicki. It was my understanding that the liabilty umbrella is a self-insured fund by the BSA and does not reside with any outside carrier.

I can't believe that you twisted those words that much and that quickly after just having read them and then typed them. Allow me to assist. Handbook *Varsity Scout team leaders should set a good example by wearing the complete uniform themselves and by encouraging each Scout to acquire and weare a uniform. Tortdog: So all team leaders SHOULD wear a uniform as that sets a good example. translation- NO what it says is that a leader should wear a 'complete' uniform to set a godd example for others. Handbook-Varsity Scouts and Varsity Scout Leaders proudly wear the full uniform for all ceremonial activities, including Varsity Scout team meetings, boards of review, and courts of honor. Tortdog-Okay...so this doesn't say should or must, but says that we "wear" them. Optional at courts of honor and team meetings? Translation- NO the key information is not should or must, they are telling you the when. This tells you when it is appropriate to wear the uniform. at occassions such as meetings and courts of honor rather than during more strenuous activities. Handbook-*During physically active events and informal activities, Varsity Scouts may wear activity uniforms of the team's choosing - Scout pants or shorts with a knit Varsity Scout shirt, team T-shirt, or camp T-shirt. Varsity Scouts teams may want to design a team T-shirt... Tortdog-Okay...so at active events we can wear the activity uniform, and that includes Scout pants/shorts and a team T-shirt (but no BSA socks and no BSA belt). Under the Guidelines, the Varsity Scouts who are proud DO wear the uniform (ableit the activity uniform). Furthermore, the FULL uniform should be worn at team meetings (as opposed to the activity uniform introduced later in the Guidelines). Translation- Close which you were depends and which is determined to be the most appropriate for the activity level. Now at this point you completely leve the handbok and take huge leaping conclusionsd with now facts to back them up. Nowhere did you find a passage that said you must be in uniform at all time. Nowhere did it say to wear clothing other than what was appropriate to the activity. No where are you told to wear silly clothing and call it a uniform. If a BSA uniform is not appropriate then wear somthing else. Just do not call that something else a Scout Uniform. The BSA does not say be in a uniform all the time. What would the team wear to water ski in? A bathing suit or wet suit right? Is that a Scout uniform? No, but it is appropriate. Is waterskiing an appropriate time to be in uniform? Since they cannot wear the uniform should they not waterski? The Scouting handbooks tell you how to wear a scout uniform. If you are playing soccer do not read the Varsity leader handbook to learn how to dress, read a soccer handbook. Wear the uniforms of the BSA when appropriate to do so as a Scout. Otherwise dress in appropriate apparel. Why is that so difficult to understand? (This message has been edited by Bob White)

If you are sued in a liability case stemming from your role as a registered leader in the BSA contact your lo0cal scout office. If you have followed the guidelines and policies of the BSA you will be provided legal assistance and any fees or fines will be paid by the BSA. Your homeowners protection will most likely NOT cover injuries sustained by others from decisions you made or failed to make on a scout activity. That would normally require a personal liability umbrella such as the one provided you by the BSA at no additional cost to you.

"I will quote the passage once I get the handbook in front of me and the computer at the same time. You might look for it at that time, but you wpn't be able to quote it. It's not there. "What should we do with this renegade SHAC that tells its Varsity leaders that uniform can include a custom T-shirt, athletic shorts and white socks?" Tell them you looked it up and they made a mistake. That is not what the program says. "Should the BSA allow a program in which the main activities of that program cannot be conducted in the BSA uniform?" Why not. It's there program they can design it how they choose. "I mean, under the current rules in the Varsity handbook, the boys will spend most of their time out of uniform." So what? As long as they were the uniform when it is appropriate and learn to know the difference, then everything is fine.

I'm with F-Scouter. While there may be no harm I do not see the need. The SPL is responsible for the Troop meetings and troop events along with the PLC. Combine that with School and family obligations that is plenty of responsibility one more meting is unnecessary. The SM is responsible for representing the program decisions to the committee. Besides there are things sometimes discussed at committee meetings that a Scout need not be present for. I'm with FScouter, the closer you stay to the program the better.

The handbook does not say the scout must ALWAYS be in uniform. No BSA handbook says that! It says that the uniform includes all of the listed pieces. You should dress appropriately for the activity. For some functions the BSA uniforms are appropriate, for some they are not. You found the section that listed the uniform, please post the passage that says a Varsity scout must ALWAYS be in uniform.

Trevorum wrotes Bob, In the thread on LDS scouts, you implied that largely eliminating the Outdoor Method for 11 year old Scouts was an "acceptable modification" of the program. Can you explain how you square this view with your statements in the current thread? Ed wrote Trevorum, Excellent question! Too bad you haven't received an answer. Both are wrong. The fact that I never implied anything of the sort makes it a bad question. Trevorum is the one who has implied that the LDS have largely eliminated the outdoor program, all I said was they don't camp on Sundays. People who believe that you cannot fully use the outdoor method without camping on Sunday have no understanding of what the outdoor method is. It sounds as if you think the method is soley about camping. Ed and/or Trevorum, How many nights of camping each year is a unit asked to do by the BSA program each year at a minimum? What do either of you think the Outdoor Method is?

Thanks for covimg my 6 Eamonn. You are right the line should have read..."A scouter who does NOT take reasonable steps to insure the safety of the scouts (appropriate training, adherence to policies and procedures) will find him or herself without protection from the BSA. " Thanks

It would seem you would be better off with one patrol until you can recruit more boys.

registered Scouter who are trained and follow the Safety Policies and procedures of the BSA as recorded in the Gide to Safe Scouting and other activity specific related training and materiels have protection from a liability umbrella from the BSA. This include BSA supplied attorney services, and financial protection from court costs and any court ordered fines as a result of the scouter being found liable for any losses. A scouter who does take reasonable steps to insure the safet y of the scouts (appropriate training, adherence to policies and procedures) will find him or herself without protection from the BSA.

Hula I am sorry to hear of your son's delay, and as much as I feel for your frustration I cannot help but think that taking two experiences and turning into "Scoutings's dirty secret" amy be a bit melodramatic. A number of the facts you offer us do not make sense. As a former scout you know that ranks are signs of individual achievements and not ranks of authority over other scouts. So who gets a rank first has no relevence to the program. JTL is not an award I have ever heard of (if you mean JLT that is a course one takes and not one that is earned. OOA I'm guessing is OA (Order of the Arrow), and Den Leader is an adult position in Cub Scouts. Considering all those confusions is it possible that you are misunderstanding what is happening. This doesn't sound like corruption or disrespect of scouting's history...it sounds like bad unit leadership. I hope your son gets the advancement opportunity he has earned.

OK, I give up. What is half a patrol?

This fascinates me Backpacker. How did this come down to Ed and Me? Other posters have expressed exactly the same view as I have. Why not Eamonn and Ed, or OGE and Ed, or FScouter and Ed. How did this distill down to Ed and Me?

If our beer was served at room temparature we would drink a lot less too.

Kudu writes...The BSA Methods may be more catchy, memorable, and even useful, but they are only one way of looking at Scouting They are the way to look at scouting in the BSA. Granted there are other programs with other structures. But if you are a leader in the BSA thses are the aims and methods that you need to know. Don't you agree? Even the scouting programn in the United Kingdom is not the same program that B-P lead nearly 100 years ago. If you are going to write your own program based on B-ps program you are bound to have a degree of success. look at all the other scouting programs around the world including the BSA that built programs based on B-Ps writing and they are all doing fine. In B-Ps Aids to scoutmaster Ship he points out "Four Areas of Scout Training, (as I pointed out this is a book on training scouts not training scoutmasters). They are the 4 areas you identify in your post. Under each he lists qualities to be aimed for in each. In Baden-Powell's words taken from the Aids To Scoutmastership.. "The aim of the Scout training is to improve the standard of our future citizenhood, especially in Character and Health; Character Cirtizenship and Fitness. Seems to me the BSA has kept very true to its origins. But I wish you well in your 'new' program.

That sounds more like Lynda has a local unit leadership problem and unrelated to the BSA approved program of the LDS church. Cubs Scouts advance to different program levels based on age how is that any different? Do non-LDS units always fill out paperwork perfectly. They don't in this District. Just becasue their program is different it isn't bad...it's just different.

Kudu you wrote.."The question I have is regarding the first chapter of the book,", but then you never actually ask a question. What exactly is your question? PS as aa historical note the chapters you listed were not the methods of B-P's scoputing program they were what B-P called the 4 great qualities of a scout. The book itself was a guide on how to train boys. The BSA Methods are an explanation of how the elements of the program achieve the aims and mission of the program. The two are not comparable.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Since I did not ask a question Ed that would have to be my answer to yours. I have no doubt that is not the one would would ever look for.

A myth being continued by some posters is that the BSA denies membership to individuals based on their religious beliefs. That simply is not true. In the case of the UU's they are not banned from membership. Their youth and adults may join the BSA (and yes they are required to pay membership the same as every other member. I have no idea why that was even mentioned.) The UU is not treated as a third class religion. (and I am not sure where to find the requirements that affect the "class" of a religion in the BSA). The UU has the right to worship as they please and to hold whatever belief they choose. The problem is that the UU said that if they were a CO that they would knowingly violate the BSA membership policies. While the UU has the right to determine their standards, the BSA has the right to determine their own. By what authority does the UU get to violate the BSA policies? Members of the UU can still earn their religious award. They can still recieve their religious award, and the UU has the authority to set whatever requirements thay choose for their award. The BSA has authority over the BSA uniform and have the sole authority to determine what awards can be worn on it. The UU knowingly placed language in the requirements that were contrary to the values of the BSA. So the BSA prohibeted the display of that award on the BSA uniform. The UU as a right to whatever decision they wish to make regarding the UU. They do not have the authority to determine the policies of the BSA.

Acco, I have no idea what you think I am struggling with. I have no internal conflicts with the Scouting Methods, what they are, or how they work. While OGE could have phrased his question any number of ways, they way he chose was fine. It was clear and asked a simple question. Required in this case means... essential, necessary, to have a compelling need for. In order for you to lead a real scouting program the use of the scouting methods is required. Ed does not feel the methods are required. But how you can lead a scouting program without them? OGE asked who else felt this way, or who disagreed. It's an important question.

That a volunteer in the BSA folow the program, policies and procedures for the program, as determined by the Boy Scouts of America.

My apologies I meant to type constraint. I do not see their program as a 'constraint' but as an approved modification to make the program a better fit to their specific needs.

I do not see how remaining faithful to ones religious obligations or how accepting the differing religious practices is "isolating" oneself. When I go go to worship with others of my faith on the appointed days I do not feel isolated from others, and when my friends of other faiths go to worship I do not feel like they are shunning me in any way. As a person of faith I feel closer in community to others of faith even if we belong to different denominations, than I feel toward people who claim affiliation to my own but do not practice it. What is the differnce between an LDS unit that does not camp on Sunday and a Jewish unit that does not camp on Friday night?

I do not think "restraints" is an accurate term. They are structures and procedures that the LDS church has worked with the BSA to enact to make scouting a more useful tool for their particular goals as a nationwide chartering organization. Rather than take the attitude of "we know better and we will do it differently" as some individuals have, the LDS church, in coorperation with the BSA, have spent years developing specific program elements that meet the goals of Scouting and their church. THey have worked closely to develop a program not based on the individual leadership style or personal wants, but one which uses scouting to better aid a boy in growing stronger in their faith. It is an impressive cooperation.

One way I found was helpful as I was learning Scouting from a leaders vantage point was to use the methods as a check list for troop meetings and outings. I would go down the list of methods to see in what ways methods were used in the plan or how they could be incorporated. After awhile it becomes more second nature. Just as a reminder there are three sets of Methods in the Scouting program. We use a different set for Cubs and Venturers because they are different age and stage of development. BW