Bob White

If Barry thinks that councelor ed lets the Scouts "slide" rather than complete the requirements as listed in the merit badge book then Barry has a responsibility to contact the council advancement committee and share what he knows of Ed's continual incompetence as a counselor and have him removed from the list. Barry the BSA merit badge blue card is a simply 3 part card that folds to pocket size. It has the name of the scout, the counselor and contact infor, the unit the scoutmaster and the specific merit badge. On completion one portion is retained by the counselor, one goes to the unit and one goes to the scout.

But Jerry...how can they get practice at cooking a food that they only get to cook once? Even if everyone cooked at every meal they would only get to cook a food one time a year. What harm is there in cooking a healthy meal that they like more than once? You have them for several years. The chances that they will cook the same thing over and over again is slim. There are better ways to motivate and achieve the mission of Scouting than through dictatorship.

We teach Scouts how to cook a variety of foods easily with minimal dishes to do but that meet their nutrutional needs. We teach them how to cook and why you cook. What they cook and when they cook it is up to them. If they are not cooking nutritional meals then we recycle the instructs. This way they learn to make their own ethical decisions based on the information they are given rather than by the orders they are given. More education is more effective than more rules to fulfill the mission of the BSA.

"OK, so you're saying that your opinion is each one of us have opinions of what are opinions of counselors and what are facts of counselors." I haven't the foggiest idea what that means?! "I never have understood the second SM signature on blue cards since there is no reason for the SM to acknowledge the completion. It is to protect the scout in case the leader he gives it to (or someone else down the line) loses the other portions of the card before it gets recorded at the council office. The pocket certificate is fine for a record once the scout gets it. But many troops wait weeks or even months before presenting that card to the scout. In the meantime if the troop loses his paperwork the scout has a reciept signed by a troop leader showing that he turned in the completed merit badge form to the troop. So the first signature insures that the scout speaks with the SM before beginning and gets info on registered counselors, and the second acts as his reciept until he gets his pocket certificate.

I, too, wonder if there are districts or councils out there who do it the old-fashioned way and encourage "cold-calls" (with Scouts using the buddy system of course). Actually if you were to read the advancement policies and procedures manual this is the current way. All merit badge counselors must be registered and approved through the council. Units do not have the authority to register anyone or to approve counseors. And while a counselor can choose to just work with scouts from a single unit, they are not required to nor encouraged to, and the unit cannot make them. So while troops (and every scouter for that matter) are encouraged to find qualified mb counselors to share their skill and knowledge with the youth in Scouting, maintaining a troop list should be for the convenience of having an abundance of counselors available not to control who the scout uses. BW

I need a question answered firs before I can give you my advice BSA_Ldr. HAve you taken any parts of the Scoutmaster Training yet and what courses did you take?

I don't think I have ever been in a troop that offered more than a half dozen merit badges through the troop adults, and yet I have had several scouts who go on to Star, Life, and Eagle. We did only two merit badges in troop meetings. All the other badges were earned at summer camp or by the Scout contacting a MB counselor and making an appointment. Each program month has a theme. The month starts out with basic skills related to the theme and ends up with more advanced skills. Two or three of the activities will meet the requirements of a merit badge related to the them. On the final week the troop librairian holds up related MB booklets and explains that some of the activities we have done can be found in these MBs. The troop is told that anyone wishing to learn about these topics and pursue the merit badge(s) should see the SM after the meeting. It is not our job to "make" scouts advance. We expose them to new things, let them try it, apply it, learn about it. The choice to advance beyond First Class needs to be made by them. They choose their own path and their own rank destination.

Gosh, where to begin. What my opinion is of who the best merit badge counselor is just that...my opinion. The scout should not be learning how to make decisions based on my opinion. There are far more important things to consider when choosing a counselor. Are they available, are the convenient, is the scout familiar with them, what resources do they have available. What qualifies them. A person with a degree in lanscaping, a person who works as a landscaper, and a person who lanscapes as a hobby are all qualified as counselors for landscape architect merit badge. Who I think is best is irrelevant if they are not readily available, inconvenient to the scout, or not the one that the scout wants to go to. I will give the scout facts about each but he does not need my opinion no matter how much you may think that he does. The SM signs the blue card initially to show that he has discussed the badge with the scout, reviewed the prsocess with him, and that the scout has recieved the name and contact information for a registered counselor. The second signature which goes on the Scout's portion of the blue card acts as a signed reciept so that the scout can if needed at a future date show evidence that the completed card was returned to a trool leader to record and send to council. Nowhere does the program say that the scout makes ALL the decisions. The program tells us to not do something for the scout that the scout can do for himself. Selecting his own counselor from a list is something a scout can do himself. I see no one trying to prove who has the best program. I see people trying to do a scouting program...and people who just like being in charge. "A leader is best when people barely know he exists, when his work is done, his aim fulfilled, they will say: we did it ourselves." Lao Tzu BW

It is nice that the CEO of your chartering organization has signed off but he has absolutely no authority over the use of the BSA uniform. Only the BSA executive committee can determine what the uniform is and how it may be used. The use of Boy Scout Rank Advancement recognitions on the Venturing uniform is approved by the BSA whether your CEO signed off on it or not.

Words are the only tools you have to convey what you mean here Seattle. I can only try to determine what you mean by what you write. I would caution terry against a forum for youth requiring a separate password. I do not see how an adult pretending to to be a child would be filtered out. An open forum is the safest for the youth. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

I mean the Scouter's Training Key which is the same medal and knot given to all the offices I listed pin attached to the knot to denote which program it was earned in. The Key for the SM and the Key for the CC was on the same form.

"So, Bob, if the Scout already has five merit badges, all counseled by his mother, you would say nothing? Why should I? The fact is in nearly thirty years of being a troop leader it never happened in a unit I served and if it did so what? If the parent is qualified what harm is there to the Scout? What are the chances that a large number of parents are going to sign up for any merit badges let alon a half dozen or more. It just doesn't happen often enough to be an issue. In addition the BSA specifically allows it so where is it my authority to deny it? "If you personally know Counselor C and think he's a terrific counselor, you would say nothing? Why would you want to imply that they are all equal, when you may have good reason to know they aren't?" Because it is not my advancement or my decision. If I thoubht someone wasn't qualifies I would have him or her removed from the list. Otherwise, while each one is not identical, they can all be good. My job is to help boys make ethical decisions, not to make them do want I want them to.

I will get my hands on a current Key application form to make sure things have not changed. In the past the Key could be earned by Scoutmasters, committee chairs, unit commissioners, RT commissioners, District Chairs, and when Venturing was created Sea Scout Skippers and Crew Advisors were added. The Sm Key and the training key for the troop Committee chair were on the same sheet you simply flipped it around. When earned the key my committee chair earned his at the same time. (That was few years ago however) I will get a current form and see if it still the same. BW

It is because of the phrase "don't you think they deserve to have their own forum" as if the lack of the forum was because the scouts were "undeserving". Does anyone else believe that the absence of a scouts forum was a deliberate sight toward scouts as Seattle suggests? If Seattle's purpose was to suggest a scout forum be started then why not just suggest that? Why ask if we thought they were "deserving" of it? Backpacker, Your personal attacks are expected and unnecessary.

Who here has the ability to take action on Seattle's question Beaver? Why post a question of that tenor to us when the only person who has the answer or the capability to act on it is the host, and Terry is easily available. This is no different then those who complain about the uniform but never send their solutions to national for consideration.

The topic of the thread, as with most threads on this forum, is about how to deliver the BSA scouting program, Why you continue to try and turn the conversation to your personal opinion of me, rather that to address the topic and the use of the methods of the program being discussed, is baffling. You say I am very knowledgable and a great resource, but yet you disagree with nearly everything I write, even when I quote a BSA resource. I have no idea how you can say one thing and yet do the other, but neither have anything to do with these threads. We obviously have different ideas of what the program is and how to work with youth. We also have had very different results. You are as free to post your tilt on a topic as I am and the reader can compare it to the program resources and determine their own preference. But if your only contribution to the topic is going to be your dislike of me then there is very little reason for you to post. Your view on that topic is already well documented.

Actually Ed I am trying to help others understand the program through a sharing of the BSA resources and by explaining how the methods are used to achieve the mission of the program. I understand that you have a personal conflict with that approach. I cannot help you with that.

I would offer a scout the names of counselors and information that might help them make their own decision, for instance. Counselor A lives on your street. Colunselor B is a teach at your school Counselor C is an Eagle Scout Counselor D works at________ Counselor E is your Mother. Who would you like to use? Unless the scout asks for further help my role is done. I have given him the names of legitimate counselors. It is his advancement, his opportunity to learn how to make his own choices. I am not his commander, I am his scoutmaster. I am there to counsel and mentor his journey toward the mission of scouting. Not to tell him what to do. There are plenty of other scoutmasters in this for the "authority" over the boys. I am not one of them.

Nature detests a void, and because of that will do almost anything to fill it. Scouters are no different when it comes to Scouting knowledge. What people do not know they will fill in. This can take many forms. The easist path 9taken by many) is to make something up based and past experience or personal druthers. Some will ask others based on trust without regard to the individuals knowledge. And some will seek truth and facts. While the last is the prefered method, it is the most time consuming, and so it is often the one most seldom employed.

Hunt, There are two times when a scoutmaster counsels a scout. 1) when a scout needs counseling, 2) when a scout asks for counseling. I do not see how a scout choosing his merit badge couselor fits either of these. Scouting is like a simple jig saw puzzle with many clearly defined pieces but you still have to put the pieces together to see the whole picture. Ed It has been explained to you before by others. It is not your job as a scoutmaster to approve or disapprove of merit badge counselors. if you feel that a counselor is not appropriate in their knowledge or in their administration of the topic then you need to notify the council or district advancment committee. I sincerely doubt that you have sat with each counslor to determine if they fit your mold of what a counselor should do. Please allow others to do their job and you stick to your. it is not your job to tell scouts what to do. While that is a popular leadership style with some scoutmasters that is not what the finished puzzle looks like.

By the way, what does your "responsibilities in helping a scout to make ethical decisions" have to do with whether you give him a menu of possible counselors or identify one you think would be the best fit? If you make the decision for the scout then he does not get to practice making decisions on his own, he is simply doing what he is told, (a leadership method which is far too popular with some adults). By giving the scout the names and contact information of available registered counselors and letting the scout make the choice helps to support the mission of the program. Why would a SM want to send the Scout to a specific counselor? Why must the SM send the scout to a specific counselor? The responsibility of the scoutmaster is to provide a program that encourages scouts to seek new opoortubnites and information through the MB program not to micro-manage him. Focus on a troop meeting program that motivates scouts and let them select their own path and their own registered counselor. You are there as a resource not as a tyrant.

"How does one create a genuine, by the book commissioner staff?" One doesn't, it takes a few people to make it happen. IT relies heavily on finding the right people and training them corectly. But it takes a lot of people to operate a successful commissioner service under its present structure. In fact it takes one commisioner for every two to three scout units in the district. Take this district I live in. We have 118 units, we need 40 unit commissioners. How long wold it take you to find recruit and train and maintain 40 good comissioner candidates. So how does one do it? Most don't, it is simply to big a task. So they make do the best they can with too small a staff. Which is why most units do not know their commissioner, there simply are not enough to go around. But if more units selected their leaders more carefully, and got them to training, there would not be the need for so many commissioners.

As pointed ot you need to uses the buddy system in all activities. As far as YP you have two concerns you need to plan for in advance. You are required to have a minimum of two adults on the activity and you must make sure you do not have any situations where a sole adult is alone with a sole scout. There are many ways to accomplish that. You just need to make sure you have a plan and you follow it.

The original question regarding the two requirementsa was often misunderstood because people misread the requirement as did Trevorum. It speaks of two different courses. Troop Junior Leader Training and Junior Leader Training. The latter being the council week-long course. So you had the option of either leadingr the troop level or being on staff for the council level. As was pointed out this requirement was changed. As far as the inclusion of the Troop Committee Challenge for the Key, that is because the Committee Chairman is also eligible to earn it and that is a requirement for them not for the SM. As with any BSA award a scouter can complete a training award under the requirements they began with or transfer the completed requirements to the new set (if they are identical) and then complete the unfinished portion of the new set. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

"don't you think they deserve to have their own forum" I was not aware that anyone "deserved" a forum, or that anybody was obligated to start a website. If a discussion group existed for dog owners would cat owners "deserve" to have their own? Is the dog website host obligated to start a hamster website? If a person would like to create a forum for scouts aren't they are free to do so? Aren't you free to do so? What makes the host of this site more obligated to do it than you?