Bob White

That is a prefectly reasonable question and it has a perfectly reasonable answer. The difference is in who made the program alterations. In the case of you deciding to limit scouts to 5 merit badge opportunities at a time, you made the rule, and you do not have the authority to change BSA advancement policies. In the case of the modified program for the LDS church. The BSA made the alterations. The were developed by the BSA on a national basis for the LDS churches specific needs rrether than one persons preference, and they were approved by the BSA executive committee who do have the authority to make said changes where as you and your troop do not. There are indeed specific areas where a CO can customize the program to fit the specific and unique local needs. Advancement is not one of them. I hope this clarifies things. It was a good question. Thanks for asking it. BW

Why not just train the CC and CR in their responsibility to select quality leaders and see they are trained in the scouting program? If you use the bylaws to simply repeat the scouting program you could just take the covers of the Scout handbooks and make new covers that say "Troop Bylaws". If you expect people to read the bylaws why can't you expect them to read a scout manual?

"Only the patrol leader had any gumption at all --- he was heating a hot dog on a stick over a fire when I saw him! Well, enough was enough. I tossed the hot dog in the fire and told him to get breakfast ready." I am curious how many posters see this as the correct response from an adult scout leader? Is this really our role as leaders? If a patrol is tired an not interested in eating... so what? When they get hungry they'll get interested and they'll eat. So what if they choose to eat their lunch in the morning, or their breakfast in the afternoon. If it's time to eat and only one scout is hungry why can't he eat his portion? Do we really take others property and destroy it (even if its just a hot dog) simply because we dislike their actions. This sort of behavior really bothers me as a scout leader and as a parent. Where in scouting is this kind of behavior taught or supported. What leadership style includes destruction of property to make a point? Where is the consideration of the needs and characteristics of boys at this stage of development. It is not the uniform or the office that makes us Scout leaders...it is the methoods we employ in dealing with the scouts.

While I agree the patrol method helps to promote good behavior I take a different approach using it that I feel better reflects the scouting methods and program. Unless a scout or patrol's behavior is a safety or health hazard I ignore it and I teach the junior leaders to ignore it. Focus on recognizing and rewarding individuals and patrols that display the correct behavior rather than expend attention, energy and resources on those that do not. The others will catch on and come around. BW (This message has been edited by Bob White)

I agree Barry, that is precisely why the "tell em what to do method" advocated by Ed (and others who use his same approach) does not work, and Scouting does. The fast way does not develop the scouts interest or self motivation it simply commands them to do your personal will. That is not scouting or what scouting is about and it will be easily measurable by the size and growth of the troop.

Not a problem, how about page 172 of the Boy Scout Handbook for starters. Then there is the leadership job descriptions in the Troop Junior Leader Training program and the job specific counseling outlines in the "Introduction to Leadership Conferences" in the same manual.

But what makes it scouting isn't just doing things in a Boy Scout uniform, it's doing it using scouting methods and scouting leadership styles. No shot just just something to think about. If what you are doing insn't working then you need to do something different. Scouting works.

Prairie If you have facts that dispute any of the facts I have presented please share them. If your only point is to demean me in general then that is inappropriate to the topic of the thread and to the purpose of the forum. I have no problem with anyone wanting to debate a point. But to lack facts and supplement them with personal comments about another poster does nothing to support your position on the topic.

So as Dr. Phil would say "So how's that workin' fer ya?" I am sure that the scouts in "your" troop know to do what you say, but how many are left to listen to you? Scouting teaches a different approach not because it uses pretty words but because it uses effective methods. Those methods retain and entice members, and achieves the mission of Scouting. So why not take the short cut and just tell them what to do? Because it is not trustworthy, helpfull, friendly, courteous, kind, cheerful, or brave.

Scouting now exists in 155 countries in the world, a higher percentage of scouts than non-scouts attend college, a few percentage of scouts than non-scouts ever have a run in with the law, during the time of the iron curtain the youth and adults in many communist controlled countries wanted scouting so bad that they risked impridonment and held secret scout meetings with Handbooks smuggled i from the free world. Scouting has lasted nearly 100 years and is the largest youth organization in the world. Many Scouts have grown up to be community and business leaders as well as dedicated fathers and husbamds, and good neighbors. When you deal with the millions of perople that scouting does there will always be a few who fall short of their responsibilities to the values of the program. But I would venture to guess that BP would see the millions of good people scouting has helped to produced and give a big grin at the legacy he left to the world. The future of scouting will be only as good as the people who we select to lead now and tomorrow. I am reminded of a sign I saw in my early days in training as a new leader. "Those who say it cannot be done should at least get out of the way of those who are doing it" All it takes for good scouting is good volunteers.

yeah just what he said "You Go Girl!"

The LDS church is not out of the mainstream for prohibiting co-ed overnight activities. Many Charter organizations share the same concern and for that reason CO's sponsoring Venturing Crews have the option of being single sex. The LDS church has a made a choice which is offered to every Venturing program in the BSA. Lack of training among unit leaders is a local problem (as shown in these two recent posts)and not indicative of the program methods or structure.

Adults get rewarded for expected behavior all the time. I had the good fortune of first taking Wood Badge before I was a parent. I learned a lot about leadership from that course that I have used in many aspects of my life. When my son was old enough to start cleaning his room I would go in and say "let's clean up your room together." After we were done we played a game together. As he got older I would look in his room and say "how does your room look to you?" If he said fine I would ask how it might improve? He would smle and say it needed to be straightened. I would ask how long it might take. He would pick a number (lets say 10 minutes) I would offer to come get him in 10 minutes and we would go play. After we played I asked if his room was done. We would go look at it together and I would tell him what he did really well. then I would ask "is there anything else you could do, or do better?" It really didn't matter how big or small a thing he found, my goal was to teach him to self-evaluate his work. After he did the tweaking we would play for 10 minutes again. As he got older I could just look in his room at him and he would say "I know I need to clean my room". After he was done he would find me and we would do something together. He is now 17 and cleans his own room as needed and then he comes and finds me. That is just a small example of how real scouting methods have helped my son to make ethical decisions. He cleans his room because it is being trustworthy, helpfull, courteous, obedient, clean, and he does it cheerfully. While he is not "perfect", he does not smoke, drink, do drugs. He hangs around with nice kids, he is involved in sports, theater, scouts, plays the drums in the church youth ensemble, and may even get to Eagle (he is even Republican). He makes ethical decisions based on the values he has learned. You do not need rules and commands to teach young people. You need to understand the lessons of scouting. Thanks BSA!

Prarie, I quoted your opinion verbatim and presented opposing facts. Others are welcome to reread both posts and see that you did indeed say what I quoted you on in context. The fact is you have not a shred of evidence to support your opinion that 1) " by segregating their Scouts by age, they miss some of the continuity and community that a mixed program provides. Not only are there no facts to support that statement but you completely ignore the fact that the BSA does not recommend or support a mixed aged program. While their age brackets in some cases are slightly wider than the modified LDS program, the BSA recommends and promotes separate program groups in Cubs and Boy Scouting based on age differences, even in the "mainstream" program. 2) "I said that if LDS leaders have a low percentage of trained leaders, that would seem to be contrary to the level of importance placed on training by many posters on this forum. What evidence can you share that show that LDS leaders are any less trained than the leaders in "mainstream" units?" 3)"that "drafting" leaders didn't seem like the best way to do things" And yet...that is the method taught and supported by the BSA for ALL units (see the pamphlet "Selecting Quality Leaders") 4) "that taken together, the comments by the earlier poster seemed to indicate that the LDS units were on the edge of what most would agree was "following the program". But when you look at the actual BSA program (not the personal opinions of others, many of whom have as little or less information on the LDS or "mainstream" program) you find that the LDS program, except for slight changes in the age grouping and group names, is really no different from the "mainstream" program. So I return to my original point. You tend to post on topics that have readily available facts without ever looking for them or considering them. Many regarding very basic elements of the Scouting program. My problem is less with your opinions than with your lack of effort to obtain a single fact on the BSA program to support your opinion. It does not require years of experience or any depth of knowledge to simply open up a handbook.

"It's not a future I'd necessarily appreciate, but I see a Great Schism. I believe at some point BSA will split off a program organization that has a more "open" membership policy. The BSA would remain what it is, but a BSA2 will come into existence (with program support from the "real" BSA - perhaps, less than publicly), which will accept Scouts whom aren't welcome into the present BSA. No crystal ball here... jd " Is it my imagination or did John just accurately predict the creation of Learning for Life only 14 years AFTER it was introduced?

Do not think I will disagree with things you write simply because you wrote them. That is not the case at all. I disagree with much of what you have written because as others besides me have pointed out...much of what you write has no foundation is fact. "How do you know that they're not, at times, just thinking in terms of "we need somebody to do this job"? Because in the LDS church the role of Scoutmaster and other scoputing positions is considered a calling from God. Each leader is specifically selected by the Bishop. No other charter organization is as consistent in its selection methods as the LDS church is. As far as scouts training other scouts you write " I never said it was less valuable. I said that by segregating the Scouts by age group, the Scouts miss out on some of the continuity and community that is a part of Scouting. " If the experience of teaching scouts in the same age group is no less valuable an experience than teaching someone older or younger, then what exactly does the scout miss out on? "Once again, I never said anything about the age of the instructor. My comments were specifically about the LDS practice of segregating the Scouts by age, which is not normal practice in BSA that I'm aware of." Once again you post an opinion that ingores easily obtainable facts. You are not aware of the BSA segragating by age??? Can a 5 year old be a tiger cub? Can a 9 year old be a Boy Scout? What about threee types of patrols that make a troop New Scout, Regular, and Venture. All are grouped by age. How could you not be aware of that? You wrote "There are probably more leaders outside the LDS who do not follow the BSA program and make it up as they go along, as there are inside. I see no need to single out this one group. But it was you who misused a qote from me ("it sounds an awful lot like Bob's comment of "we think we know better and we're going to do it our way" ".to suggest that what the LDS was doing was borderline scouting at best. That is not anywhere near the reality of things. The LDS Scouting program has taken decades to develop and was done with the full cooperation of sevaeral divisions of the BSA and implemented on a national scale not unit by unit tampering as many non-LDS leaders have chosen to do. What is the amount of outdoor activity that the BSA asks any troop to do each year? I think the answer is "none", but once again, not something I mentioned." Again an absolutely incorrect statement when the answer is easily obtainable in several BSA resources. You continually choose to ignore the opportunity to learn facts before you post. "Bob, it's perfectly fine for you to disagree with me, but it seems a little unfair to attribute comments to me that I never made. Yet as you see by your own quotes that you did make these statements and I did not fabricate any part of what you said. "And two, Bob, you seem perfectly willing to take people to task in other threads for not dotting every "i" and crossing every "t" when it comes to the Scout program, but when it comes to the LDS, it's seems ok with you if the age groups are different, or the groups names are different, or the program structure is a little different (your comments)." That is because as stated previously the LDS on a national scale has worked with the BSA to design a specific scouting progra, to fit their specific needs. No other religion or organization in this country have chosen to make Scouting the official youth program of tei organization except for the LDS church. While they do not have the most scouts they do have the most scouting units of any CO in the nation. If the VFW were to make scouting their sole and official national youth program you can be assured that the BSA would help to contour the program to fit their groups specific goals and characteristics. But to date only the LDS church has chosen to do that. "My comment was that the LDS program, from the comments made here, seems to be far enough out of the "straight and narrow" that some Scouters advocate that they are really just hanging on by the skin of their teeth." Actually, if you had more knowledge of the BSA program you would see that the LDS structure of scouting is closer to the actual BSA program than most units operate by. There is very little written here of the LDS methods (which you have found fault with) that isn't also a method or procedure of the "mainstream" program which you did not even know about. BW ""Every Scout deserves a Trained leader" Baden-Powell (This message has been edited by Bob White)

The guidelines are just that, guidelines. They are not restrictions. A scout Troop or patrol with the knowledge and experience to do a horse trek are free to do so. The chart gives leaders a general idea of activities the age group they lead should be able to do with proper training and equipment. They are not carved in stione.

Nothing written in this thread or in the the BSA program supports what you have written Prairie Scouter. Many units have leadership problems because they recruit leaders by standing in front of a gathering or parents and saying "we need somebody to do this job". The LDS Bishop after carefull consideration says "we need YOU to do this job". A method that is far more in line with the BSA recommended selection process. If a 13 year old scout teaches a 14 year old scout a new skill, as oppossed to a 12 year old, is that less valuable to either because the teacher was younger instead of older? What if they were the same age? would either benefit less from the teaching. The BSA teaching process is the youth with knowledge share with the ones who need the knowledge. The age of the instructor is immaterial. There are probably more leaders outside the LDS who do not follow the BSA program and make it up as they go along, as there are inside. I see no need to single out this one group. Why is there a concern that LDS leave Saturday night? You don't mention the Jewish scouts who do not arrive until Saturday, or the Catholic Scouts that leave very early Sunday to attend Mass? Lack of knowledge in some people breads mistrust and misunderstanding. Lack of knowledge in the LDS church seems to do the same to some scouters. I have trained many LDS leaders over the years. Our training team simple explains that some age groups and some group names may be different than those in their specific program structure but the methods, and skills are the same. Nowhere does the scouting program say that you have to go out Friday night and come back home Sunday from a campout. I will ask this question again of those who feel the LDS is missing out on the outdoors of scouting. What is the amount of outdoor activity that the BSA asks any troop to do each year? (This message has been edited by Bob White)

If I invite a preacher I would expect that he'd preach.

There are lots of other things to use besides food that work extremely well. Scout t-shirts, fishing lures, handbook covers, star charts, cook books, posters, water bottles, compass, etc.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Hopefully the ceremony was meaningful to the eagle candidate because afterall that is who the ceremony was for. If others enjoy it as well then thats an extra bonus prize. I would also hope that the purpose for being in the audience was to show the Scout your support and not for the performance of those in the ceremony. Asking a minister priest or rabbi to come and pray but to not use the prayers of his or her faith is inconsiderate and insensitive to the life conviction they have made. When I see a member of the clergy about to pray I fully anticipate hearing them shre their faith even if it is not mine, and I am willing to bet that most others expect the same.

But if for a month at meetings you had some interesting door prizes and the more uniform pieces a scout wore the more times he got to enter for the prizes, if your Scoutmaster minutes talked about the importance of good grooming, or how a uniform can make a person feel part of a special team, or about the history of scouting and why we should be proud to show we are scouts, if you found some special opportunities in the community which would require that the scouts who participated be in a complete uniform, then after a month you would probably see an improvement in uniforming.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I guess the answer to your question depends on what you think it means to "set the example" for the scouts. If you think it means to show them how they should be able to do the skills of a teenager then I suppose you are required to stop being a scoutmaster as soon as you can no longer act as a teenager. If you think it means to behave as the best person you can be at the age that you are, then I suppose that as long as you can set a good example as a person you can continue to be a good Scoutmaster. Setting the skill examples as a scoutmaster is such a tiny part of what setting the example is all about that it would be a shame for anyone to be made to feel that if they can't keep up with a teenage boy that they have no value as a leader. If simply being able to tie knots and ride a bike were the examples we had to set to be a scout leader we could train monkeys to do it. It's the example we set in our lives that make us valuable as scout leaders not our ability to be as physically active or as durable as a teenager.

Sorry Jerry. I ask the same question of jr56.

OKAY BSA_Ldr here are my recommendations. 1) take everything you learned in cubbing and forget it. Boy Scouting is different. The role of the Adult leader is different, the role of the committee is different, the methods are different, the needs and cgharacteristics of the boys are different. Little or nothing you learned or used in cubbing is applicable in Boy Scouting. 2) Reread the Scoutmaster Handbbok and The Boy Scout Handbook. Practice the skills and practice teaching them to others. 3) Remember that Boy Scout L:eadership and all you other leadersship experiences have a major differece. In Boy Scouting your job is not to get the job done but to teac the elected leaders how to lead. 4) The sooner they realize this is their troop and not yours the faster they will take on leadership responsibilities. They will work harder for their plans then they will for yours. 5) The SM and The CC really are the driving forces in the troop's adult administration, along with the CR. Committees do not operate by consensus or by majority rule, the CC gives out instructions to the committee members and they report their progress at the monthly committee meetings. Unlike in cubbing the committee does not make the program plan in scouting, the PLC (Patrol Leaders Council) does that. 6) Learn to Counsel and Mentor and learn the difference. After the meetings begin.... 1) Go camping right away 2) follow a monthly Plan 3) do everything by patrol. 4) Remeber that the patrol leaders lead the patrols and the SPL is the ringmaster not the boss. 5) Follow the handbook and keep the promise of scouting. I will repost a list I put up here once that many found helpful. These are characteristics that I have noticesd were shared by successful scout troops. The more of these elements you can guide the troop to the better the troop will do. Tips for a Successful Troop  Everyone gets trained  You are impacting the lives of every boy in the program, you owe it to them to know your job  Form a Committee and Meet for 90 minutes monthly  Committee members include 1. Charter Organization Representative 2. Committee Chairperson 3. Treasurer 4. Advancement Chairperson/Membership 5. Scribe 6. Quartermaster 7. Popcorn Chairperson/Special Events 8. Scoutmaster  The job of the Troop Committee is to support the plans of the scouts, not to make plans for the scouts  Committees do not vote. The Chairman hands out assignments and the committee members take action and report back to the Chairman.  Go to Summer Camp  Plan, Plan, Plan  The Scouts under adult guidance select and plan the things they want to do and learn.  Planning is done through the Patrol Leaders Council  Use Monthly themes  Dont feel you have to teach everything the first year  Patrol leaders run events Adults train the Patrol Leaders and Senior Patrol Leader  Put your plans in writing  The #1 reasons boys quit scoutingboring meetings  Use your resources  Hands on teaching  Play games  Change whats going on every 10 to 15 minutes  REMEMBER Scoutmasters have just 2 primary jobs 1. Know the characteristics of each individual Scout 2. Train Junior Leaders  Select adult leaders  Dont ask for help or demand help. 1. Determine what has to be done 2. What kind of person does it take to do it 3. Who do you know that fits those characteristics 4. Tel them the job, the goal, the importance of the job, their uniqueness to do it best, the time you expect it to take, the resources you will give them to be successful 5. Keep your promise 6. Give a Big Warm Fuzzy  SMILE  If you cant play nice go play somewhere else  If you arent having fun then neither are the boys  Recognize  Recognize every advancement progression 3 times 1. At the meeting when the advancement was completed 2. Present the award at the very next meeting 3. Present the certificate or record card at the next Court of Honor  You cannot give positive reinforcement too often as long as it is sincere  Use the Patrol Method  Troops are not divided into PatrolsPatrols gather to form a Troop  Small groups of 5 to 8 scouts selected by the scouts not assigned by adults  Elected leaders from each Patrol form a governing body called a Patrol Leaders Council  If you dont use the Patrol method, its not scouting. Its just doing things in a scout uniform.  The Patrol Method isnt one way to do Scoutingits the only way Lord Robert Stephenson Baden-Powell Founder of the Boy Scouts