Bob White

OPPS yes Silver loops are correct sorry I had cubbies on the brain. You will no doubt hear things about the 9 momth run like.."that's that way we always did it here" or something similar. But Cub Scouting is a year round program, and units that have year round programs do better. You will find in your Roundtable Planning program a year round agenda and year round themes. While it might take a summer to get units use to coming year round you will find that by not writing off 25% of the year due to local "tradition" that the units will be stronger for your efforts.

Think a President and his cabinet. Think the BSA program and the contents of the Boy Scout Handbook, Scoutmaster Handbook, Patrol Leaders Handbook, Senior patrol Leaders handbook, Scoutmaster Training, Troop Juniors Leader Training...That all say the elected SPL selects all troop officers and the PL selects all patrol officers. Why does only every other elected leaders gets to select his cabinet? Why do half the scouts not get to have that learning experience? Think about.. are you asked to deliver your program or the BSA program?

The BSA does not finace LFL, it has separate books, separate income, separate payroll. LFL is able to accept government funding, BSA does not, LFL pays for the time spent by professionals in its support, not the BSA. The LFL does not use FOS monies, those are spent only on traditional programs. LFL's major difference is not that its members are different but that it COs are different. LFL exists in places that cannot or will not charter BSA units. For instance when Chicago would not allow police and fire stations to charter the BSA Law Enforcement and Emergency Service Explorer units, they would sponsor the identical LFL Explorer Posts since they did not have the membership restrictions which remained intact in the traditional programs. LFL does not compete with BSA membership. It allows program to continue in places where political forces would have removed the programs it can now offer. LFL is not BSA lite, there has little if any comparison between any program existing in LFL and those of the traditional BSA programs other that a few Venturing crews that are similar in program to some Posts. In addition to its ability to exist where traditional units cannot, the LFL reaches kids in areas and communities where the traditional program would have great dificulty finding members and leaders. It is able to bring values and self esteem education through public and private school systems to kids who may not otherwise have support systems in their lives where they can learn these values. So I ask again where is the harm of a program that teaches positive attributes to youth whether it is a BSA program , a BSA subsidiary program or a non BSA progarm. Why trash its purose, methods, or its accomplishments simply beacuse it isn't "our" program? (This message has been edited by Bob White)

I'm not crazy about the use of BS on a scouting related site but its a good lead in for this. You see teaching young people self confidence, motivation and self worth as a bad thing because .......? They are not scouts and so have no right to those things? You see those as bad things for a youth to have? Your afraid that an understanding of such things might develop into a growth in their value system? Where exactly are young people harmed by the goals of LFL? (This message has been edited by Bob White)

hmmmm I wonder if we could just TELL them to be cheerful? Simple, direct, easy.

I see this as just another situation where minds have been made up without bothering to gather any actual facts. Learning for Life is not a bad thing, it's just different, and so something you know little about you just assume is bad. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

John you cannot take the values out of the pragrm aand have it be the same program. your argument is that there be a parallel program that is different but the sam, and while that may sound lyrical it is physically impossible. What you said in tyour post was that " The BSA would remain what it is, but a BSA2 will come into existence (with program support from the "real" BSA - perhaps, less than publicly), which will accept Scouts whom aren't welcome into the present BSA.,/I>" Which is exactly what happened in the creation of the LFL. NOWHERE in your post did you make the specific program points which you made in your last post here. I could at the time only comment on what you wrote, not on what you were thinking but did not write.

John...I didn't suggest anthything regarding the future ...it was your prediction remember.

Scouting is as co-ed as it will get unless the GirlScouts close their doors forever. The BSa will not do anything that could diminish the enrollment of the Girl Scout program. Ain't gonna happen. FOS is a council by council fundraising. There are over 300 councils all doing their drives at different times and with different methods and goals depending on local administration. It is highly unlikely that you have the available data to know if FOS in Scouting is up down or even, except in your own council or adjoining ones.

"So then where is the conflict? Everyone disembarks when they arrive at the campsite. The Scouts mill around checking things out & after a little while you say to the SPL "Get the gear unloaded." Why do you have to TELL the SPL to "get the gear unloaded". He already told you in the car that he was going to do that, he told you how he was going to do that he told you what he was going to do after that? Why can't you just get out of the car and be quiet and observe the SPL and others do their job so that you can congratulate or counsel him later on? Why do you insist on displaying to the scouts that the SPL is nothing more to you than your parrot? Train them, Trust them let THEM lead. Your idea of successful teaching seems to be that if the scouts do what you tell them to do... then they have learned something. The crevice widens.

How can elections run every 6 months and appointments run 12, if it's the elected members who get to make the appointment?

Rad the Cub Roundtable Program Handbook, recruit a staff based on their ability to deliver the program elements of your agenda. Develop a promotion plan to get the word out about the new and improved Cub Roundtable program. Begin to meet year round. Cubbing should be a year round program, the program support should be there year round as well. (the epaulets were already sewn on your shirt (the flappy things on the shoulder) you were given your blue shoulder loop covers ) Have fun with Roundtable. BW

If they are age eligible to cross into Boy Scouts you would use whatever 'bridging' ceremony you have in the past (you can find them in the "Ceremonies for Packs and Dens" manual), you simply do not present the AOL since it was not earned.

But your council or district do not make BSA policies. The BSA requires that all merit badge counselors be registerd and approved. They must have knowledge of the subject based on education, occupation, or experienced hobbyist. You are seriously minimizing the scouts experience by having parents merely "willing" to counsel without having the actual knowledge of the topic. When you take short cuts for convenience you sacrifice the youth's opportunity for a meaningful experience.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

There is no place on the adult application for the Charter organization to sign. The Committee Chair and the Charter organization representative or the Institutional head must approve all registered adults. While the committee is welcome to help in the selection process the only authority to approve adults is with the CC and the CR or IH. It also says the Cubmaster and pack Trainer select and recruit the program leaders ..However only the CC and CR or IH can approve that selection.

Definitely read the Cub Scout Leader Book!! >The CC and the CM run the pack as a team. >The CC leads the committee the CM leads the program leaders. >There are no suggested tenures for scouting leaders in the BSA leader handbooks or training materials, >the committee does not choose the leaders or have any authority in the matter, >the cubmaster and the den leaders do attend the committee meetings, >everyones membership, adult and youth, renew each charter year but the CC and CR can move people about or remove them from their current position at will anytime. The answers you seek cannot be fully explained in a formmat such as this. Training for all involved is your best solution.

"Bob, Has it ever occurred to you that entire scenario could be played out on the way to camp in the vehicle? If you read the post ED you will see that I said we did this on the way to camp.

LFL is designed for a different audience, it has a different purpose, and so cannot be accomplished with the same program.

Well I have noticed that a few scouters who almost always post the same way I do have not said anything on this I think I might know why. So I will go ahead and express how I feel on this. I am not a huge fan of adult patrols on scout outings. While there are far worse things you can do as leaders there are also better things. Too often these "adult patrols" get so distracted with there own group that they fail to do the job they are there for, and that is to observe evaluate and develop the junior leaders. The Scoutmaster's job is not to be an adult patrol leader, it is to be the Scoutmaster and the jobs are vastly different. This is the boys troop and not the adults the more the adults draw attention to themselves the less ownership the boys will feel. As I say there are far worse things you can do as an adult leader, but there are far better ways to teach a scout or a junior leader. I would much rather see the adults freely associating and helping each other volunteering to do tasks not because they were assigned but because they see the need and choose to pitch in. After all that is the final effect we are trying to achieve with the scouts and that is the example we should be setting the example of. The ability to be independent with the skill, and the willingness to help others at all times. BW

t487scouter, you are jumping to some very incorrect conclusions here! Bob, I realize also that BSA has agreed to these rules and accepted them More than that... the BSA MADE these modifications. But it is also somewhat contradictory when BSA QU requires x number of boys to attend summer camp No they don't! They require that the troop attend summer camp. no specific number of boys is required. yet young LDS boys can't. Sure they can. They have the choice to attend locally or to attend a camp outside the council approved by their local council. Here they are saying they want everyone else except LDS to send their boys. Not at all, an LDS troop must still have a long term camp in order to achieve Quality unit. I feel if BSA is going to make exceptions to the rules and desires of the organization then they need to weigh those decisions and make them for the whole. For example, if BSA feels women should not camp with their son it needs to be a BSA rule for all troops. But the BSA does not say that to ANY unit. They give all COs the choice as to who to select as leaders and allow on campouts. Some choose not to send women, heck if a CO chooses they don't have to send a man. The BSA offeres every CO the same choice they offer the LDS church. I am particularly bothered by this rule. There are a lot of great women scouters out there and I am sure there are many that would like this opportunity. And they have that opportunity if it is approved by the CO. Women in the LDS church already know and understand this decision it is a part of their belief system as well.. Same with the requirements of camping for QU. If BSA feels that young boys should attend summer camp, they should request LDS send the boys just like they hound our troop to do. If it is not important, then remove this requirement from QU. But the BSA does support LDS troops going to camp. Again, this is not meant to be anti LDS, I just feel that everyone that belongs to BSA should be treated the same. If a rule is made by BSA, it should apply to everyone. Nothing you have mentioned so far is a rule. There is no rule that a woman must go camping. There is no rule that a troop must go to summer camp. There is a leadership option that units can choose or not choose. There is an award that troops can choose to earn or choose not to earn. You have not shown an example of a rule that differes between the programs. I know of no rule that does not apply to everyone in an LDS troop and a non-LDS troop. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

"My question is about the program. It doesn't seem to resemble the BSA National Programs for kids of the same age. It isn't delivered, structured or "methoded" in any way that I can see, as yet, similar to the Cub and Boy Scout program. " Of course not. That's the point. the tradional program works because it brings traditional values to traditional members. If you want a program for non traditional mebers it will have to be a different program. You cannot have different ingredients and expect the same cake to come out.

"OK. So when we get to camp telling the SPL to "get the gear unloaded" isn't the way to go? I should have a 10 minute conversation with the SPL so he understands why the gear needs to be unloaded? That way he will feel part of the decision making process? Do I have this correct? Ed Mori Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10" Do you have it correct? That all depends on what kind of leader you want to be and how well you understand the scouting program. First as a Scoutmaster, or when acting on his behalf, the SPL would always ride with me. On the way to the camp site we would review the agenda for the next 12 hours of program. Let me share a part of the converstaion on a recent outing. Me: So what is the first thing you have in mind to do tonight. SPL: I will tell the guys to unload. Me: All the guys? SPL: Well, I'll have the patrol QMs get their patrol gear and the patrols will get their personal gear into pack lines. Me: excellent idea! Now did you plan to shout this out to everyone at once. SPL: Well I really just need to talk to the PLs and the QMs Me: That's a good point. I think you got a good handle on this. I will have the adults wait until you guys are done then we will get our stuff. SPL: That would help Me: Have you seen the map for the camp area? SPL: Yeah, but its not very detailed. We really could get patrol sites from it. Me: So what's the plan? SPL: I guess while the patrols unload the PLs can pick their sites. Me: that sounds good, let me know where everyone is once their sites are set-up Okay. SPL: Sure, then should we do a quick PLC to go over tommorrows schedule? Me; That's your call, just let me know what you decide. if there is a meeting I'd like to be there. SPL: If they get set up early enough we will do it tonight, otherwise I guess we can to it while breakfast is being prepared. Me: If we go in the morning let the PLs know tonight in case they have to adjust their duty rosters. SPL: Good point. I'll bet we spent 20 or 25 minutes reviewing the agenda like that, rather than 10, but you know what...the scouts are worth it...aren't they? This boy was 14 and not quite a Star scout. I think he did an awesome job. The other two boys in the car who listened in on the conversation will be better leaders just by having witnessed the process. I will not leave my camp site until the SPL comes to get me to say all the patrols are set up, or unless I am needed for an emergency. The SPL will roam around offering assistance to the PLs as needed. will there be mistakes? Sure probably, we will deal with those later as the opportunity arises. OR You could get out of the car and tell everyone to get unloaded and for the patrols to get set-up then report to the leaders area for a plc at 9:30 don't be late. Then tell the SPL where you wanted the tents lined up. 1 minute tops. Simple, direct, gets the job done. Which is closer to what you would you do Ed?

OK, so I am not surprised by the first response. Let's admit it Ed this is the huge crevice which separates you and I. I see it as their task to accomplish or not accomplish not mine. I will have my meal if I am hungry whether they eat when I do or not, it does not matter. This is of no concern to me when it comes to the mission of the program. I am trying to teach them to work as a patrol and be able to function independently. Their ability to make the decision to rest rather than eat seems a valid decision to me. The member who said he was more hungry than tired found a food that wood not require him to cook a large portion which might go to waste since he was eating alone. He thought to prepare it in a way that would not require unnecessary work since he was eating alone and possibly was still fatigued fronm the trip. I give these guys credit for making ethical decisions that worked for their needs in their patrol. No one was being harmed, no BSA policies were being violated, there was no cause for interference by the adult leader. Being a scoutmaster means to be a master of scouting...not a master of scouts. If someone really has the need to be "in charge" of a smaller life form then they should get a puppy, not a scout troop. So now we have two divergent sides of scout leadership in action. I ask others to respond "what is your reaction to this situation as a scoutmaster"? BW

Let's do a comparison John, ". . . BSA will split off a program organization... In 1991 the BSA formed learning for life a susidiary of the BSA actually owned by BSA Publications, the folks who bring you Boys' Life and Scouting Magazine. that has a more "open" membership policy. Learning for Life does not require it's members to subscribe to any faith based or lifestyle choices. "The BSA would remain what it is," and it did. "but a BSA2 will come into existence (with program support from the "real" BSA - perhaps, less than publicly) LFL is headquartered in the national office of the BSA. BSA coumcil offices across the country act as the local offices of the LFL program and BSA trained professionals are local coordinators, However its resources and finances are separate from those of the "traditional" program ... which will accept Scouts whom aren't welcome into the present BSA.", And it does. However I take exception to the term "not Welcome", they are in fact "not eligible" for the traditional programs due to personal controllable choices. (a person chooses atheism, a person chooses to avow their homosexuality. No one forces them to do either.) Had the individuals made different choices they would have remained eligible to obtain or retain membership. So you see LFL is everything you predicted the BSA would do, they just did it several years before you predicted it. BW