Bob White

Unc, National has already said the next national will be in 2010 rather than 2009 in order to coincide with the 100th anniversary of the BSA.

But Lynda....if the troop follows the handbook and uses the patrol method they are!

Lynda I think if you look at the list again I did indeed include the importance of the role of the junior leaders in the program. Scoutmaster concentrates on training Junior Leaders, and knowing the needs and characteristics of each scout. They use the Patrol Method for everything They follow the contents of the Boy Scout Handbook You cannot do these three things and not have youth involved in the troop leadership. I think boy run is a misused and misunderstood term. Scouting is run by adults. Junior leaders are trained and developed by adults. Scouts within the troop and patrols are boy lead. To what degree will depend on the abilities and skills of the adult leadership.

There is a poster used in Trainer Develop that says Something along the line of "Those who wish to lead must never cease to learn". What courses should a leader take? All the ones that relate to their job and any others that they want to learn from. The list of resources where we an find information that could make us better leaders is endless.

While I do not condone the boys behavior in the least this was not sexual harrassment. (had he touched her in any way she would probably had cause for assault). Madkins unfortunately chose to only include the first small portion of the legal definition of sexual harrassment as used by U-Mass and which is a common definition. Had she completed the quote (shown below) it would be clear that the conditions require the use of intimidation in a work, academic, or residential setting. None of which apply in this case. The rest of the quote... "Even in subtle forms, it creates confusion because the normal boundary between professional or social roles and personal relationships is blurred. Sexual Harassment can involve persons in authority such as faculty, administrators, staff or TA's, or can also involve fellow workers or students by subjecting one person or group of persons to unwanted sexual attention. It is sexual harassment when: submission to the behavior is made or implied to be a condition of your employment, class attendance, living in residence, or academic progress; submission to or rejection of the behavior is used as a basis for decisions related to employment or academic performance and progress; the behavior has the purpose or effect of unreasonably interfering with work or academic performance, or the effect of creating an intimidating, hostile, or offensive work, residential or academic environment."

So RF lets consider the progression you have shared. It began with "We are having trouble having BOR for scouts due to the lack of adults at the meeting. Those who are there when they can are the 'old guard' who do not have sons in the troop." That became " Currently there are 14 committee members I think. 8-10 come to committe meetings. The committee membership is not the issue for us( or at least not immediately)." and has now been explained as "the lack of committee members at meeting is due to a break down of communication and the blame for that can be spread around to all here fairly well." If the communications has gotten so bad that 3 adults cannot be coordinated to meet at the same time isn't there a chance that poor communication is playing a major role in recruiting ASMs as well? There seems to be far more evidence of that in your posts then of a poor attitude from the parents. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

A complete list of training courses can be found in the Council/District Training Committee manual. You can purchase it at your local scout office.

"You claim you do not pack extra gear for others but then you provide them with proper gear if they don't have it." You misread my post. I never said I gave them the proper gear. I said that I make sure they have the gear they need to be safe, or they do not go to camp until they get the gear.

Your tests seem to be working..you are double posting just fine!

Just a tip CA either leave or stay, but never threaten to leave. Once you threaten it you diminish yourself as a leader. No committee chair wants to have the frustration of never knowing what is going to make you threaten to leave again and what isn't. It does more to make you look bad as a volunteer than it does in making your point of your dissatisfaction. I understand your disappointment but either accept the decision of the committee (who are the ones responsible for determining the behavior contract with the scout), or present new evidence to change their decision, but do not use threats to get your way.

Red feather you said "The committee membership is not the issue for us" and you say that you have 14 committee members with 10 active. yet you also say that you can't get people to do a board of review, and activity that only requires 3 committee members. Why do you suppose that you and the advancment chair can't get 1 more adult out of 12 to show up for a bor? Manyirons, lets keep in perspective who introduced the "babysitter" topic. If you yell fire and a crown forms don't blame them, they didn't sound the false alarm.

In most cases for scouting a simple Sylva Polaris works just fine.

This boy needs professional counseling. What he did is not socially or morally acceptable in our society. It is especially not appropriate for a scout let alone a teenager. Personally I would have called his mother the moment it happened and had her remove her son from the scout activity. This is not a momentary lapse in judgement that he had. This is a sign of a real problem that needs to be taken seriously by the adults in his life before it creates even bigger problems. Staying home from a campout does not get the scout the help he needs. The committee should insist that the scout get professional counseling before he will be allowed to return to the troop. What the parent does with that opportunity is her choice.

As a committee member it is within your responsibilities to identify potential leaders, but selecting them is really the job of the CR and CC. What methods are they using to secure leadership for the unit? Is it really fair for you to use language which was specifically intended to get a response and then ask us not to respond to it? You cannot have it both ways. If you only used it to draw attention and it had no real relevance to the conversation then that was deceitful, wasn't it? (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Don't misunderstand me, I don't think your son should have needed to make waves. He did the right thing, he just didn't get the response that he should have from the assistant patrol leader. That is a training problem. In the future, until the leadership training problem is solved I would get you son a freeze dried meal, teach him how to make it and have him pack it as a precaution. Rather than focus on what he should have done talk with him about how we will respond in the future when he is in the position to help another scout in his situation. Make him better prepared as a camper and a leader rather than help make him a more effective victim. It's fine to know what to do if you fall off a cliff, but it's better to know how to avoid falling off all together. BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Truly there is far more to scouting then rules, regulations and procedures. But if a leader doesn't at least know whats in the basic training and the handbooks then how can they possible figure out how they blend into a scouting program? At some point if you have any hopes of delivering a "scouting" program you need to understand what the scouting program actually is. You cannot "tweak" an engine until you know what its parts are and how each of them function. In fact, unless you are familiar with how to use the keys you can't even hope to get it started properly. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Being prepared is a personal goal. What we are trying to teach the scouts is to think things through ahead of time and to prepare themselves personally for the tasks and challenges that lay ahead for them as individuals. You cannot expect, nor should you try, to prepare yourself for what others may forget to do. You cannot be prepared for the responsibilities of everyone you may come in contact with during your life. You can only prepare yourself for what you are responsible for. As an example with scouts and the clothing they should pack. My job is not to pack for them but to teach them how to pack. If they do not follow the advice or instructions given to them to pack rain gear then that is a result of their ill-preparedness not mine. Would I risk a scouts health by not giving him gloves if he came on a winter campout without them? Of course not, as a good leader I would make sure that someone checked the scouts for such essentials BEFORE we left not after. Any scout who came ill-prepared would need to find a solution before he joined us at camp. Making sure he is prepared is his responsibility, making sure he is safe is mine.

No one can make you a babysitter. You can choose to act like one or choose to be treated like one...or not. Rarely (once perhaps twice) have I ever seen a unit where parents wouldn't help is selected and recruited correctly. nor,ally what happens is that they are recruited poorly. Red feather according to your profile you are a Cubmaster (CM), what is your role in the troop? When I know that I can point you in the right direction. BW

No one can make you a babysitter. You can choose to act like one or choose to be treated like one...or not. Rarely (once perhaps twice) have I ever seen a unit where parents wouldn't help is selected and recruited correctly. nor,ally what happens is that they are recruited poorly. Red feather according to your profile you are a Cubmaster (CM), what is your role in the troop? When I know that I can point you in the right direction. BW

A few things come to mind. What should have happened to prevent that from happening to your son, What should have happened once the problem was discovered, What should be done about it now to minimize the chance that it will happen again. AND the fact that this is a good example of how to make scouting work, OR a very bad example of good scoutmastership. Perhaps both. In my mind making sure new scouts have a good...no make that great..camping experience the first few times out is a priority of good adult leadership. Adults should be in the background listening to planning, checking plans, guiding events. before anybody starts screaming that the boys need to make their own mistakes lets remember that they first need to be trained how to do things right. Knowledge takes time and skills take practice. Let's remember that you cannot expect scouts to learn everything simply by being miserable. During the campout the adults or junior leaders need to be observing key activities to make sure the new scouts are doing well. Food, water and shelter are basic needs that need to be met for any person but especially new scouts IF you want them to stay in scouting. Once the problem was reported action should have been taken. Here is a great opportunity for a good asult leader to calmly meet with the junior leader to discuss what happened and ask them what should have been done to avoid the problem as well as what should have been done once the problem was realized. This is where you see what kind of adult leadership your troop has. Do they holler at the boys for not solving the problem. Do the counsel the scouts about why this is important as leaders to know the needs of the group and the individuals in it and how a leader takes responsibility for their welfare. I hope your SM steps up and does the right thing as a leader. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Where can be anywhere. I think the when is what is most important. You should do them when neither you or the scout are pressured by time, or distracted by other responsibilities. The scout needs time to think and express his thoughts. You need to be able to give the scout all of your attention to listen to him and be focused on his answers and not on other activities, so that you can give thoughtful counsel. BW

You would need to ask someone in your group. I do not know of any such official award in Cub Scouting.

Care to share what 3 or 4 of the most important bylaws are that they have written?

To think that you can be prepared for everyone else around you and everything they may not have prepared, for is pure foolishness.

Membership conditions to join Boy Scouts. 1) At least 10 years old and Arrow of Light 2) At least 10 years old and completed the 5th Grade 3) At least 11 and not more than 18 years old meet any one of these and you can join. (This message has been edited by Bob White)