Bob White

Both your questions are answered in the Guide to Safe Scouting. In the appendix you will find the flying application form which must be completed and filed with your council. In the portion that explains two deep leadership it tells you that a send adult on the gound observing the flight is sufficient. It is impotant in scouting that when planning ANY activity you review the related materials in the Guide to Safe Scouting. You can find the G2SS on the web here http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/ It sounds like the scouts will have a great adventure.

I never intentionally broke a law. I never did something knowing that it violated a rule or law. If I parked at a meter I paid. If the speed limit is 35 I drive at 35 or below. I find it fascinating that you find abiding by the law as unusual. Sad more than fascinating I guess.

If it's an OA event wear the OA sash. If it's a troop formal event wear your merit badge sash.

Well At least two people were able to stick to the thread. This is not about the uniform. (by the way the rule is that the words Sea Scouts be embroidered over the pocket not that it be on the strip. The strip is for convenience. It is no different then if the you do your troop numnerals in separate numbers or in a single strip.) The topic is the attitude of big rules little rules. Do the leaders who allow themselves the priviledge of selecting what rules to follow and what rules they get to ignore offer the same leeway to the scouts in the troop? People who cannot be trusted in little things cannot be trusted in big ones. I am amazed that a scout leader would actually have to ask if I follow all the laws as if that would be an unusual thing for a person to do. Of course I do, don't you? What are you doing in a scout uniform telling scouts to be good citizens if you knowingly break the laws of your community? Don't wear your uniform correctly or follow other rules in scouting based on your personal opion. Follow them because as a leader you have a responsibility to teach scouts how to be good citizens. Eamonn We call them Chreasters. Church goers you only see on Christmas and Easter. They are like the scouters who brag about wearing the full uniform but then don't actually know or follow the program. It's just a show for the public. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

I did not read where anyone condoned his obscene behavior toward the young woman. But what if what he did was illegal the law he broke was not sexual harrassmemnt, which is a specific legal term with specific conditions that did not exist in this situation. To say that he sexually harrassed her is not legally correct.

Are you asking if I have ever knowingly igored or violated a law? No, I have not. And I am not alone. I can say with great confidence that neither has my wife, my parents, or her parents. I would be willing to bet that we are not the only people in this country that do not knowingly break a law. Would I ever set an example for the scouts I serve by showing them that if they feel a rule is "small eneough" or that it is is "inconvenient" that it can be ignored. Never. Why would a leader do that? And by the way the uniform is meant to have the words SEA SCOUTS sewn above the pocket so whether it is done withn the strip or ebroidered ditrect is fine (we checked) as long as you use the same font size and style. And why, if she is a member of the Sea Scouts, can't she wear the appropriate uniform to scouting events. I really do not understand why you represent these things as rule violations. No foul.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

And where Kahuna would I find a rule in scouting saying that you had to wear all your knots? Is it before or after the rule about how many side arms you can wear? Could you supply an actual rule of scouting that you feel you can ignore and then tell us how you explain to the scouts that there are rules in their school, home, community that they can ignore if they feel they are small enough or inconvenient enough? (This message has been edited by Bob White)

If only the definitions were as widely used as their label. If a scout leader doesn't know what constitutes an activity uniform now then how will just changing the name solve anything? Many call it a Class B and still have no idea what it means.

This is not about following the program perfectly. This is a question of knowingly ignoring a rule becsuse it doesn't suit you personally as far as importance or convenience and asking what does that teach the scout. Which rules in your troop are unimportant and a scout can choose to ignore without penalty. Which rules in your community are so small you tell your scouts they do not have to follow them? This is not about making a mistake and getting better. This is about the large number of times on this forum that scouters have said in effect "I know its against the rule but I do....... and it is seems always based on personal convenience. As I mentioned as the most recent example a scouter posted that he wore the uniform incorrectly for "sentimental reasons" and that he would only wear it correctly if it became convenient for him. Does no one else see the harm in that attitude as a leader? It's not about any harm done to the uniform or the BSA there probably was very little, it is about the horrible example of citizenship that is displayed to a scout by making your personal needs the gauge by which you determine what rules in society apply to you and which ones don't. We are leaders, shouldn't we be concerned about where we are leading them? (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Mick, The last uniform change wasn't the only one there has ever been. The uniform has changed a few times. The scouters who didn't wear a full uniform before did not suddenly start wearing a full unirom when this one came out, and the ones who don't wear it now are unlikey to wear the next one. This isn't really about the style of the uniform, it is about the person who chooses wear it, or chooses not to.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I agree, but the question being discussed is, do you teach them to follow only the big ones? And...who gets to do the measuring? Do you suppose the people the rule was made by and especially the people the rule protects, might see it's importance a bit larger than the people who are expected to follow it. I sure you will agree that if everyone disobeyed rules as they pleased it could cause a bit of chaos in many ways. So who gets to decide that you can break rules that you see as small and inconvenient but others should obey the rules? Kahuna, In the military, officers wear the uniform right because of pride and tradition. Lower ranks to a great degree I'm sure do what they believe is right or what they can get away with. Where do you suppose those two different attitueds are formulated? As an enlisted personnel you might not worry about how your example affects those following behind you. But as a Scout Leader shouldn't you??? Shouldn't you consider that a LOT?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

We have no need to present further evidence your honor, we rest our case.

Hunt, have you any experience or even a concept of what it takes to uniform MILLIONS of people. The cost? The Logistics? Not to mention the fact that many of the groups I mentioned dress the same way out of respect for the history represented by their uniform. Do you think there might be elements of that philosophy in the evolution of the BSA uniform? Do really think that no teenager wants to someday be a Swiss Guard, or a Marine, or a priest? If we had more unit leaders who put as much thought and effort into what is inside the uniform as they do in what the uniform is we would have a much better local program for our scouts. The uniform only represents the program, what happens at your next meeting determines the quality of the program not what the uniform is.

I do not disagree with what you wrote Spiney, I disagree with what some scout leaders are teaching scouts by picking and choosing which rules apply to them and which do not based on personal comfort and convenience. Do you really mean to teach scouts that there are rules which they do not have to respect because they are little rules? Is shoplifting less wrong if I only take little things or if I only take things for sentimental reasons or because it is more convenient for me to take them? What rules do you teach or will you teach your children to ignore?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

School Schoolwork Housework Sunday School Little League Baseball Soccer Track String Bass lessons Piano lessons Drums lessons Jazz Band Pep Band Percussion Ensemble Church Youth Ensemble Drama Club Stage Crew Outdoor Adventure Club rock climbing rocketry remote control cars and boats Dating Driving Work Model railroading This are just some of the things my son has done and still does while a scout. As a scout even with all these other activities he has served actively as Patrol Leader, ASPL, SPL, QM, and now Yoeman on a Sea Scout Ship. Some of the offices he has done more than once. He is not what you would call an exception, he's just a kid. He has this huge world around him and he wants to see what different things are about. The things he like he does more often and with greater energy than things he doesn't like. That's just how kids are, thats how most adults are too. As scout leaders we need to make scouting one of the things they like. If they are doing other things more than scouting...guess what....

This isn't just about not knowing the rules, this is about knowing them and choosing to not follow them because they are inconvenient to the individual. And its about what those behaviors teach the scouts. If you want a discussion about a scout leaders responsibility to know the program that they are steering that's an entirely different thread. I don't think your arguement will hold water in that one either.

"Adults set the standard." Then why don't kids dress like their parents? Adults help form the attitudes and values. Individuals determine their own standards. A scout who wants to wear a complete uniform will wear it better than a scout who is made to wear it. Good leaders help the group to understand the purpose of the uniform and can give scouts positive motivation and rewards to wear it. You don't know anyone who dresses like they did 20 years ago? The Chicago Cubs come to mind, the Pope, jockeys, priests, The Marine Corps dress uniform, the police in my town, the VFW (especialy the ladies auxilliary), the Shriners, Sailors on the Constitution (Old Ironsides), the US Continental Army Band, The Swiss Guard, my uncle Bernie, just to name a few. I fully expect a major uniform change as we approach the BSA's 100th anniversary. Interstingly enough, once it happens the same folks who find reason to not wear this uniform, will find reasons to not wear the new one.

Which rule book are you talking about? The one on safety? Do you feel that can be ignored? The one on advancement? Should adults be able to control a scout's advancement based on personal whim rather than the rules? So do ignore that one? The one that protects legal,licensed, property of the BSA? Do you not need to teach scouts to obey rules that protect other peoples rights and property? Which rules in scouts and in your community can you ignore for your personal convenience and what rules in the troop and in the community do you teach the scouts they can ignore because they are only human? Don't think that you don't teach them that because whether you realize it or not , you do it every time you break a rule. Ed, not everyone drives a car but there are still laws that control how you do it when you do. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

First, don't listen to rumors or the grape vine. The people who participate in those activities have more personal problems than you have time to deal with. Second, you did your job, you kept everyone safe and reported the incident to the committee. You are not a social worker, forget the documentation. The Scoutmaster handbook and the Guide to Safe Scouting says to do what you did. You are fine. Third. If anyone should be seeking legal assistance it is the scout whose personal property was vandalized by the boy who was suspended. Put this behind you and go serve the boys who are willing to behave as scouts. Should you recieve official notice that legal action is being taken against you then call the council scout executive. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

One of the reasons that scouts are doing 'other things" is that they are not being allowed to do the things in scouts they should be doing, so they find other things to occupy their energies. In a few cases where the adults do too much the problem is inexperience on the part of the leaders, in most cases I have seen it's just the adults enjoying being "in charge" of "their troop". The less the leaders 'do' the more time they have to lead.

This thread is has nothing to do with communists, or weapons dealing, but since no one seemed bothered by using "scouters as babysitters" as an attention getter when it had nothing to do with the thread, I figured no one would mind them as weapons dealers either. We'll see. What I wanted to talk about is the willingness of Scout Leaders to pick-and-choose what rules they will follow based solely on their personal comfort or convenience. While I do not disagree that we have an awful lot of rules in our lives, certainly far more than in B-P's time, we also live in a far more complicated and intertwined world. But, citizenship is a big part of what we teach in scouting and rules and laws are what help protect the functions of a society as well as protect the citizens. In a recent post a scouter bragged on how he knowingly wears an incorrect uniform because it pleases him personally. No other poster said a word about it, even though the writer admitted it was against a BSA rule. A minor rule I agree, but a rule nonetheless. I wonder if he expects the scouts to follow ALL the troop rules, or just the big ones...or just the ones that don't cause the scout personal inconvenience? Can the scout in the troop ignore rules for "sentimental reasons"? It's so easy to say the rules of scouting are no big deal and to only follow the rules that are convenient to you but two things to remember. 1) The kids are watching you and if it's OK for you to choose which rules to follow then its Ok for them. 2) The difference between violating a scouting rule because its inconvenient is no different than the excuse a criminal uses to rob from his neighbor . having to earn a paycheck is inconvenient. You choose to be a good citizen and follow the laws of the community you chose to live in, or you choose not to be a good citizen. Scouting is a microcosm of adult life for the scouts. What lessons are you really teaching them?

Changing attitudes and behavior in adults who see no need to change or have no interest in change is pretty much impossible. Childrens attitudes and opinions are far easier to shape than an adult's. A good example would be a scoutmaster in a failing program is far more likely to look for excuses in the scouts, the parents, the program, the uniform, politics, just about anything before he will even consider that it might be his behavior that is causing the problem. So I am sorry to say that you have a long road to travel before you can change other adults. On the bright side, you seem to have a very good grasp on how things should be done in a scout program. Often times in our lives the best thing we can do is to do the best thing we can do. I am hopeful that by other adults watching you and the successes you will have by following the BSA program, that you can begin to instigate the willingness to change within them. Good Luck, BW

"Teen girls need a place to find gentlemanly boyfriends who obey the Scout Law & boys need to be able to approach girls without being treated like players on the prowl." Aren't we doing that now? Trustworthy, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, clean, reverent, aren't these the attributes that play a role in deveolping "gentlemanly boyfriends"? I know my son's girlfriend's parents thinks so. Few people deny that there are benefits to a coed program. Neither the BSA or the GSUSA see a behavioral or program problem with coed programs at certain ages. The problem is not the ability of a coed program to succeed. The problem is the ability of the GSUSA to maintain its identity or even survive if the BSA was coed. The GSUSA "scouting" program is and always has been unique from the program of the BSA. It serves a different population which it feels needs different skills and a different teaching methodology. It has a right to continue on its own trail if it chooses to do so, and the BSA will not do anything that will knowingly harm the stability of the GSUSA program. The two spend years discussing and negotiating a merger, and it was the GSUSA that terminated the talks at the time. The reasons are obvious, the result of a merger would more than likely resemble a coed Boy Scout program, than a coed Girl Scout program. The GSUSA has a long and rich heritage which they are in no hurry to relinquish. They have every right to maintain their own program and the BSA should do nothing to inhibit their ability to continue. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

I would say that the people who write catalog descriptions are not trained program leaders, whom I would hope would know the program better than a store clerk does. If a person uses a clothing catalog as a program guide then they have more problems than the BSA program can help with.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

The only reference in the SM Handbook on the age of an ASM that I can find is on page 15, right hand column, last prargraph. "Upon his 18th birthday a junior assistant SM will be eligible to become an ASM" (This message has been edited by Bob White)